Posts by Jeffro

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Well if your opinion is truly based on your own independent research then you should be able to provide definitive reasons for your opinion as so far you have failed to do.

Ho hum...

Following is the list of assumptions I accept for my interpretations of Daniel:

Books that accurately describe details of past events were written after those events
Daniel includes information that accurately describe events during the Seleucid period

Following is the list of assumptions 'scholar' accepts for his interpretations of Daniel:

The universe had a cause
The universe was caused by a conscious entity
The entity was a deity
The deity still exists (or at least continued to exist until the Neo-Babylonian period)
The deity has some interest in the universe
The deity has some interest in humans
The deity interacts in some way with humans
The deity is the God of the Abrahamic religions
God imparts prophecies
The book of Daniel contains prophecies imparted by God about future kingdoms (after the time of writing)
Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretations of Daniel are correct, except where their own previous interpretations have been discarded, which were also correct until they weren't

Once 'scholar' provides definitive proof (not fallacious appeals to tradition, incredulity or sentiment) for his list, I'll clear up any contested assumptions in my list. 🤣 For the sake of argument, I might be willing to grant point 1 in the list for 'scholar' even without definitive proof.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

I’ve sufficiently shown readers that you are wrong and am not interested in pandering to your irrelevant demands.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The problem that you have is proving that Daniel was of late composition.

😂 My analysis of Daniel is consistent with the best scholarship. A deluded Watch Tower Society shill disagreeing with me in the Internet is hardly a ‘problem’ for me.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

It is just a typo. Nothing has changed as my comment remains sound

No, doofus. Despite your attempt to just focus on the incidental typo, the WT book explicitly says the copper kingdom includes the Seleucid period right up until 30 BCE 🤦‍♂️

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

There is absolutely nothing in Daniel to support a 2nd-century composition

Only if you pretend that the obvious references to the Seleucid period are magical 🤦‍♂️

WT scholarship along with SDA scholarship.

I hope you don’t think that’s a coincidence 😂 Adventist groups have Adventist beliefs. Wow. Amazing. 😂

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

WT scholarship

🤣

Dan.2::23,29 refers to the Grecian World Power and not to the Seleucid Kingdom according to WT scholarship. The duration from 331 BCE to 30 BCE and in its latter days was divided up into four kingdoms which included the Seleucid Kingdom.

Ha ha. You can't even get your own beliefs right (setting aside the fact that Daniel 2:23, 29 are the wrong verses as well, but I provided the right ones, 32 & 39). Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, pages 54-55:

The copperlike world power continued only until 30 B.C.E. when the last of these four kingdoms—the Ptolemaic dynasty ruling in Egypt—finally fell to Rome.

Similarly, the Seleucid period is indeed included in the JW interpretations of the corresponding elements in chapter 7 & 8.

Your claim that vss. 33; 41-43 covers the period from Alexander to Antiochus IV is your opinion based on no evidence

Whilst I did indeed independently arrive at the correct time period for these verses, it is also the mainstream scholarly consensus, so claiming it is just ‘my opinion’ is irrelevant and misleading ad hominem.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

https://www.academia.edu/24822317/IS_DANIELS_SEVENTY_WEEKS_PROPHECY_MESSIANIC_PART_1

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Jeffo, thanks for informing me that the WT's idea that the Jews were especially expecting a Messiah around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel comes from a Christian tradition. Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

Christians are the only ones who make the claim.

In the first century, the Jews were under Roman rule and there were Jewish groups that expected the 'messiah' to liberate the Jews, but there was no specific expectation he would appear in 30 CE (though Jesus' ministry as described in the Bible would have begun in 26 CE). And Jesus didn't fill the role of what the Jews generally expected (or expect) of the 'messiah' anyway.

Because the Jews viewed (and view) Daniel among the Writings rather than the Prophets, they weren't generally looking to Daniel to point to the arrival of the 'messiah'. Of course that doesn't mean that no Jews at all interpreted Daniel that way, though there is no indication that they specifically made any such claims before '30' CE (and the arithmetic doesn't work for the correct year, 26 CE, anway; and that's before you get to the problem that Daniel doesn't say the 'messiah' would be 'cut off' at 'the half of the week' as claimed by JWs and similar Christian denominations, but rather only after the '62 weeks' when those denominations say is when he first appeared). There was a sect of Judaism that sprung up in the mid-first century that accepted Jesus as the Jewish messiah, with a post hoc rationalisation (i.e. the 'ransom') for why he died rather than liberating the Jews from the Romans. That group significantly diverged from the beliefs of Judaism due to Roman influence. Today, we know it as Christianity.

The only references to Daniel in the NT were written not only decades after Jesus' death but also after the Jewish revolt in 66 CE, and the earliest NT books (i.e. Paul's writings) give almost no biographical details of Jesus at all let alone that they were expecting Jesus right when he appeared.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Nonsense, there are no references at all to the Seleucids in chapters 2, 7 or 8 but only to a part of ch.11 as mentioned in a previous post.

Haha. Poor deluded 'scholar'. It must make things hard having so much cognitive dissonance. Even in the JW interpretation, the following verses refer to the Seleucid period:

2:32, 39: in JW dogma, the 'copper kingdom' (incorrectly) includes the Macedonian and Seleucid periods up until 30 BCE (in reality, verses 33 and 41-43 cover the period from Alexander until Antiochus IV)
7:6: the four wings of the leopard represent Alexander's divided kingdom, two of which are the Ptolemies and Seleucids (in reality verses 6-8, 19-22 and 23-25 refer to the period from Alexander through to Antiochus IV)
8:8, 22: as with chapter 7, the 'great horn that was broken into four' depicts Alexander's divided kingdom including the Seleucids and Ptolemies (in reality, verses 8-12 and 22-25 cover this period)

The fact that there are any references to the Seleucid period in Daniel is evidence enough, but the very obvious references to that period in chapter 11 are sufficient to definitely place the composition of Daniel no earlier than the mid-2nd century BCE.