Posts by Jeffro

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️

🦘

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️ Poor addled ‘scholar’. He imagines that preparation and travel has ‘only now been considered’. He makes the same kind of pathetic jibe every time it is ‘acknowledged’ that ‘there was an exile’ (as distinct from the nonexistent ‘70-year exile’) as if it’s new Information. 🙄

Desperate to claim 538 BCE is ‘impossible’, he throws 537 BCE under the bus by pointing out that one person suggests 533BCE. 😂

In reality, there was no ‘decree’ just for the Jews, but a general policy on Cyrus’s part of allowing former exiled peopleto be repatriated to quell social unrest. The biblical story is greatly overstated and it is indeed true that many scholars recognise that the full number took a much longer time to return, with several separate groups returning at different times. As I already showed, the stories in Ezra and Nehemiah obviously conflate details, evidenced by the fact that they can’t decide whether it was Jeshua or Ezra who officiated. However, there is no problem at all for an initial contingent to have returned in 538 BCE.

All of this has previously been pointed out on this forum but ‘scholar’ is a slow one. It’s also somewhat ironic that the claim of ‘impossibility’ Is coming from someone who believes that all of Egypt was exiled to Babylon for forty years, not to mention all the other ridiculous stories in the Bible like the ‘flood’. Maybe after ‘scholar’ provides the logistics of getting the kangaroos back to Australia, I’ll give a breakdown of the preparations for returning to Judea. 😂

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

A standard retort from JW apologists about the Jews returning from Babylon to Judea in 'only' 6 months after Cyrus' decree is that it 'wouldn't allow time for preparations'. This retort never includes any kind of breakdown of just how long it would take to prepare, nor does it account for the fact that the size of the group allowed for division of labour for the preparations. Instead, it is simply a fallacious argument from incredulity.

Exact preparation times can only be speculated, but tasks could be divided among teams for responsibilities such as leadership, logistics, supplies, route planning etc, which would greatly reduce the time required for overall preparations. So the claim that it would be 'impossible' is entirely unfounded, particularly for people who were highly motivated to make the trip. And some of the many Jews who remained in Babylon might also have helped with the preparations.

As far as the journey itself goes, covering just 25km per day (allowing for a comfortable 5km per hour with several rest periods) and allowing 3 rest days per week, the complete journey could be done in about 16 weeks (112 days), if taking the long route of about 1,600km as proposed by the Watch Tower Society rather than the more direct route of about 800km.

(According to Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66, 42,360 people, plus 7,337 slaves [which is apparently fine] and inconsistent numbers of singers made the journey, but comparison of Ezra 3:2 with Nehemiah 8:1-2 shows one or both versions to be unreliable.)

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

Nothing to do with arithmetic.

I suppose that could be taken one of two ways.

1) 'scholar's' limitations go beyond just having trouble with arithmetic; or

2) 'scholar' imagines that adding 70 to a number does not involve arithmetic, in which case see point 1.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

I get the sense that scholar is not entirely serious but is performing a kind of madness.
It reminds me of a quote, which I can’t locate now, along the lines: don’t try on madness for size because you’ll always find the garment fits

I occasionally suspect he can't really be as dumb as he seems, but whatever his intent, honest readers can benefit from responses to his drivel.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar' whines about supposed 'fuzziness' where none exists, and claims JWs have a solid start and end for their incorrect assessment of Babylon's 70 years.

Of course, it remains the fact that the Bible never mentions 70 years of exile, and Babylon's 70 years is explicitly a period during which all the nations were to serve Babylon, which would culminate with a judgement of Babylon.

But, setting that aside, JWs' chosen start and end points for their incorrect interpretation of the 70 years are entirely 'fuzzy', based on supposition and circular reasoning, with no support at all for their chosen starting point and weak support for their chosen end point. The best they can do is claim it is "likely" that the Jews returned in 537BCE, though the correct year is 538BCE.

Supposition. Insight, volume 1, page 568:

In view of the Bible record, Cyrus’ decree freeing the Jews to return to Jerusalem likely was made late in the year 538 or early in 537 B.C.E.

Circular reasoning. Insight, volume 1, page 800:

Judah and Jerusalem had been left desolate of inhabitants, in the autumn of 607 B.C.E., when those left by Nebuchadnezzar moved to Egypt. The 70th year of Jerusalem’s desolation, the last enforced sabbath on the land, would end in the autumn of 537 B.C.E. Cyrus’ decree must have been issued late in 538 B.C.E. or early in 537 for two reasons. The desolation had to last until the 70th year ended

Josephus indicates that the temple foundations were laid in Cyrus’ second year (Against Apion, Book I, chapter 21), and Ezra 3:8 places that event in the second month (Iyyar), corresponding to 10 April - 9 May of 537 BCE. Ezra 3:1 says the Jews were “in their cities” in the seventh month (Tishri) of the year before, corresponding to 17 September - 15 October of 538 BCE. If the Jews returned in 537 BCE, that would place the construction of the temple foundations in Iyyar (29 April - 28 May) 536 BCE, which is not part of Cyrus’ second year, and therefore wrong. An announcement around the time of Cyrus’ accession on 24 March 538 BCE would allow ample time for the 4-month journey in order to arrive in Judea by October.

Many sources agree that the correct year is 538BCE. For example:

The Age of the Maccabees, Annesley William Streane – 1898: “BEFORE entering on our main subject, it is desirable that we should take a brief retrospective glance over that part of the earlier history which lies between the return of the Jews from their captivity in Babylon (538 BC)...”
The Catholic Encyclopedia: Volume 8, Charles George Herbermann, Edward Aloysius Pace, Condé Bénoist Pallen – 1913: “I. HISTORY OF THE JEWS. — This history may be divided into various periods in accordance with the leading phases which may be distinguished in the existence of the Jewish race since the Return in 538 bc”
The Creative Era Between the Testaments, Carl Gordon Howie, Carl Gordon Howie – 1965: “Under provisions of the royal decree, Sheshbazzar, who was appointed governor of the Jerusalem area, and his company of fellow Jews left Babylon for Jerusalem during the reign of Cyrus. The immediate purpose of their return in 538 BC ...”
The Jewish People: A Pictorial History, Israel Program for Scientific Translations, Israel Program for Scientific Translations – 1973: “Permission was given to the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple. The first return in 538 bce involved 42.360 free men and 7337 slaves; the territory assigned to them was small..”
The Controversial Sholem Asch - Page 269, Ben Siegel – 1976: “Apocalyptic tendencies that led to both Jewish and Christian Messianic movements were apparent as early as Ezekiel, but they did not "flower" until after the Jewish return (538 BC) from Babylon.”
Jews and Christians: Graeco-Roman views - Page 3, Molly Whittaker – 1984: “When the Persians took Babylon, some of the exiles were permitted to return (c. 538), although many remained...”
The amazing adventures of the Jewish people - Page 37, Max I. Dimont – 1984: “The first Zionade, launched in 538 BCE, had a distinguished leadership — two princes of the house of David, ...”
A History of the Christian Tradition: - Page 22, Thomas C. McGonigle, Thomas D. McGonigle, James F. Quigley – 1988: “The Return from Exile In 538 BCE a new political power, Persia, ...”
The myth of the Jewish race - Page 97, Raphael Patai, Jennifer Patai – 1989: “We can gain a very rough idea of the extent of Jewish-Babylonian intermarriage in the half-century that elapsed between their arrival as exiles in Babylon and their first return to the land of Judah (538 BC)...”
A Guide Through the Old Testament - Page 16, Celia Brewer Marshall, Celia B. Sinclair – 1989: “Jews return to Judea from the Exile beginning in 538”
Exile: Old Testament, Jewish, and Christian conceptions - Page 89, James M. Scott – 1997, “including the return in the year 538 under the leadership of Sheshbazzar (Ezra 1 ).”
Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible - Page 449, 2000: “According to Ezra, the exiled Jews returned to Judah and Jerusalem en masse in response to a decree by Cyrus king of Persia (538; 1:1-4).”
Merriam-Webster's collegiate encyclopedia - Page 857, Merriam-Webster, Inc – 2000: “Cyrus the Great allowed them to return in 538 BC, and the Temple of Jerusalem was rebuilt.”
A Concise History of the Jewish People - Page 11, Naomi E. Pasachoff, Robert J. Littman – 2005: “the return to Israel under the Persians in 538 BCE”
Fire Bible-NIV-Student - Page 580, Donald Stamps, Carey Huffman, J. Wesley Adams – 2009: “In stage one (538 BC), 50000 exiles returned, led by Zerubbabel and Jeshua (cf. Ezra 2).”
Fire Bible Student Edition: New International Version - Page 580, Hendrickson Publishers, Carey Huffman – 2010: “Note that the first group of Jewish exiles in 538 BC returned to Jerusalem”
Kings of the Jews: the origins of the Jewish nation - Page 152, Norman Gelb - 2010 - 246 pages : “RETURN TO ZION Like their return from Egypt almost eight centuries earlier, the return of the Jews from Babylonia was in waves, beginning in 538 BCE.”
The Last Tango in Baghdad - Page 1, Albert Khabbaza MD, Albert Khabbaza, M.d. – 2010: “The Jews were dispersed mostly to Persia and Babylonia. The opportunity to return arrived in 538 BCE when Cyrus of Persia issued the famous decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their Temple.”
Fantastic Victory: Israel's Rendezvous With Destiny - Page 129, W. Cleon Skousen – 2011: “One year later, in 538 BC, Cyrus authorized 50000 Jews to return to the ruins of their beloved Jerusalem for the purpose of rebuilding it. These 50000 “Zionists” required four months to reach their destination and were led by a man who ...”
Holman Concise Bible Dictionary - Page 210, Holman Bible Editorial Staff – 2011: “Jehoiachin's grandson, Zerubbabel, led the first exiles back from Babylon in 538 BC (Ezra 2:2; Hag. 1:1).”

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Basic arithmetic is beyond ‘scholar’s’ abilities. 😂

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The said scholar can see and feel the fuzziness!!! LOL!!

If only there were a way of determining which of the events was 70 years before 539BCE. 🤦‍♂️ I’ll give you a clue. It’s the one about which Insight definitively said “the Assyrian Empire had ended”.

Now… when were those 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s alleged insanity? Remember, no ‘fuzziness’…

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

What is the point of scholar doing better when you are convinced that Neb's dreams are fictional?

See how the apologist makes up trite excuses for not being able to provide specific details but demands specific details from others. Despite the fact that I even provided details of his own denomination’s position that showed him to be wrong.

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

common sense would dictate that the 70 years would have not some 'fuzzy' beginning but a distinct event in terms of history and chronology

Insight on the Scriptures, vol. 1, p. 205:

The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh … Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer [Harran] after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 629 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.

Note that JW literature calls it 629BCE because of their broken chronology, but it actually identifies the specific event in 609BCE when Babylon completely conquered Assyria, exactly 70 years before Babylon was itself conquered.

Now… when were those 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s alleged insanity? Remember, no ‘fuzziness’…