Posts by Jeffro

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

However, the Bible also does not support JW interpretations about Babylon's 70 years.
It does.

Prove it.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

Ergo I will do my own research

Except you won't, will you. You will read what the Watch Tower Society has said, and just accept that, ignoring the fact that you explicitly reject the 'algorithm' that the Watch Tower Society said it used to confirm the positions that it lied about.

But if you do actually do your own research, by all means post your evidence supporting your view. Since you have so far posted no evidence of anything at all.

And the rest of your childish dismissive gibberish wasn't even worth responding to individually,

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

The Watch Tower Society won't touch the planetary positions, instead dismissing them as supposedly ambiguous, which is both a lie, and a red herring because the observations don't fit 588 BCE, even if the specific names of the planets are ignored.

VAT 4956 (lines 12 and 13 on the front) says there were 4 planets visible during the period between sunset and moonset on the 1st evening of the 3rd month. The observations indicate that 2 planets were in front of Leo (and therefore near each other), another planet was above Scorpio, and another planet was opposite Leo. Even if specific names of the planets are ignored, this is impossible for the required period asserted by the Watch Tower Society, supposedly starting the evening of 30 June 588 BCE.

Between sunset and moonset on the evening required by the Watch Tower Society (and the next few evenings), Jupiter was far below the horizon, Saturn was behind the sun (on the far side of the solar system), Venus had already set before sunset, and Mars and Mercury were on opposite sides of the sky to each other. So with only 2 planets visible and neither near each other, the observations cannot be reconciled at all (even if we pretend the planet names are ambiguous).

But on the correct dates (starting from the evening of 20 June 568 BCE), Mercury and Mars are very near each other and both in Leo, Venus is still in the sky after sunset and to the west of Leo, and Jupiter is above Scorpio, completely consistent with the tablet.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

The onus is on you to prove your case that vat 4956 sky is -568 if your approach is to argue.

I don't need to prove any such thing. The scholarly consensus is already that VAT 4956 refers to events in 568 BCE. The astronomical facts confirm it, and I have provided that information. But this isn't some novel interpretation I've come up with, so there is no onus on me to prove it. It has already been proven. Adherents of a religious denomination just don't like it.

I haven’t seen that scholar added anything more to falsify -568 solstice.

Indeed. It is physically impossible for the reference to the solstice in VAT 4956 to refer to the solstice of 588 BCE. It perfectly fits 568 BCE, along with the other observations in 568 BCE.

I want to add as an end point that wt doesn’t use the vat to extrapolate -607, only Bible interpretation.

This is a red herring. The Watch Tower Society attempted, poorly, to assert that VAT 4956 is consistent with their beliefs about 607 BCE, and I'm not aware that anyone has ever suggested that the Watch Tower Society bases its 607 dogma on VAT 4956. However, the Bible also does not support JW interpretations about Babylon's 70 years.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

I don’t need your rhetoric because it has zero effect on my methodology of ascertaining facts.

I’ve seen no evidence that you have a methodology. In fact I’ve seen no evidence about anything from you at all.

What is your evidence that VAT 4956 supports 588 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year? And remember, you have indicated that you don’t trust the software used by the Watch Tower Society for supposedly arriving at that conclusion, so you can’t fall back on that. Don’t forget that same level of rigour that you expect from everyone else.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

It also needs to be proven that Neb’s 37th year is in fact his 37th year and that the Bible date of Neb’s 18th year at destruction of Jerusalem have the same basis.

Literally thousands of contemporaneous cuneiform documents testify to the entire neo-Babylonian period, including Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year, as well as all the transitional periods between all of the known kings. This is better attestation than the Bible’s dating for Jerusalem’s destruction.

Still waiting for Fisherman to present any kind of evidence whatsoever for any part of his own (borrowed) view. Any such evidence must meet the same rigorous standards he expects from everyone else.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

The onus is on you to show that science proves -588.

It’s not even clear what that is supposed to mean let alone being my responsibility. The specific astronomy software used and endorsed by the Watch Tower Society’s own article shows that the solstice definitely didn’t occur on 9 July in 588 BCE. The apologist can’t handle this. This is textbook cognitive dissonance.

according to your non validated algorithm

Notice how the apologist tries to dismiss the facts presented by the astronomy program as some kind of supposed failing on my part.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️

See. The apologist just demands more and more even though the facts have already been provided, and he just doesn’t like them. But the apologist makes absolutely no attempt to provide any evidence whatsoever for his own (borrowed) position.

Even the same software Watch Tower claims to have used for its own assessment is rejected by the apologist. 😂

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

Are these results written in stone or are there tolerances and variables of error and is the programming based on belief or fact? I am not attempting to undermine the integrity of the program.

As already clearly stated more than once, it is not possible for the solstice to have occurred on 9 July in 588BCE, or any other year within many thousands of years. Not even if you wish really hard. Astronomy algorithms aren’t based on ‘belief’, and it’s not clear how you imagine that would even be implemented. It sounds as though you haven’t bothered to even look up any basic information on solstices or any relevant concepts at all beyond what is spoonfed by the Watch Tower Society.

You continue to expect answers from everyone else, having provided no evidence for any of your own claims, and you blindly accept assertions made by the Watch Tower Society without holding it to the same standard of rigor. There’s a word for that.

As also previously stated, this whole 588 BCE argument is even worse for the Watch Tower Society because the year that everyone else calls 588BCE is what JWs call 608 BCE, and the attempt to link astronomical observations for the actual year 588BCE only worsens the problems associated with the JWs’ ‘20-year gap’ in neo-Babylonian history.

Reminding people that you also believe ‘Noah’s ark’ to be a real thing doesn’t help your credibility either. 🤦‍♂️

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

How do you know or by what authority are the actual dates of the solstices for -568/-588?

The following is provided for honest readers who might also want to know about the method used. I installed Cartes du Ciel, (the program used by the 2011 Watchtower ‘researchers’) and made the observations for the required dates, and provided screenshots. Physics determines the correct dates. One can take two approaches. If you know the solstice date already, you can start from there. But even if you don’t know the correct date, you can pick a date in the required year and check the values for the sun, observe the ecliptic longitude and declination for that date, and then adjust the date until the measurements are 90° and 0, pinpointing the correct date for the solstice. I chose to keep all the observations at midday, but the exact time of day can be refined to precisely match if desired.