Yeah, don’t bother poor ‘scholar’ with what the Bible actually says. That’s not the JW way. 😂
Posts by Jeffro
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207Scholar and Fisherman
by Jorden inscholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.
do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?
if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?
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207
Scholar and Fisherman
by Jorden inscholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.
do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?
if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
Your flaw in logic and analysis is shown. First of all I’ve considered information on this thread from respected posters. I’ve also quoted from the Talmud and from Jewish sages such as Rashi, Moshe Ben Nachman, Rambam and others besides Christological books and other Bible commentators and languages throughout the years and more which you don’t know about. So again you are wrong.
Wrong as usual. I didn’t say you’ve never read anything else. But you have been conditioned to only form your beliefs based on what the Watch Tower Society says. Name dropping some other works doesn’t change that. 🤦♂️ You have thoroughly demonstrated that you reject factual material that isn’t consistent with JW dogma. (But this thread isn’t for elaborating on those specifics.)
Even if I wasn’t a JW I would still concur with WT You only want to argue. My beliefs have formed from observation and study of wt material and other sources but not because wt says so although I agree with wt approach to interpret the Bible and WT interpretation.
Unlikely (with the exception that some very minor sects hold loosely similar beliefs), but if that were the case, your beliefs would still be wrong.
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207
Scholar and Fisherman
by Jorden inscholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.
do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?
if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
In the Insight Book ... My belief is only interpretation or commentary on what the verse means.
It doesn’t sound as though Fisherman has formed any beliefs other than whatever is spoonfed by the Watch Tower Society. Aren’t these people supposed to be ‘skilled Bible teachers’?
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207
Scholar and Fisherman
by Jorden inscholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.
do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?
if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?
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Jeffro
‘scholar’:
The FDS is a parabolic statement as a part of an eschatological context that has application to all of Jesus' disciples both as a collective - community and as individuals which would include the leadership namely the GB.
This word salad in response to a ‘yes or no’ question is reminiscent of the dishonest answer given by Geoffrey Jackson at the Australian royal commission.
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362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
😂 a notable distinction in the level of proof expected from himself. And JWs apparently consider this to be convincing evidence to save people from their angry god. 🤦♂️
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362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
Prove it.However, the Bible also does not support JW interpretations about Babylon's 70 years.
It does. -
362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
Ergo I will do my own research
Except you won't, will you. You will read what the Watch Tower Society has said, and just accept that, ignoring the fact that you explicitly reject the 'algorithm' that the Watch Tower Society said it used to confirm the positions that it lied about.
But if you do actually do your own research, by all means post your evidence supporting your view. Since you have so far posted no evidence of anything at all.
And the rest of your childish dismissive gibberish wasn't even worth responding to individually,
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362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
The Watch Tower Society won't touch the planetary positions, instead dismissing them as supposedly ambiguous, which is both a lie, and a red herring because the observations don't fit 588 BCE, even if the specific names of the planets are ignored.
VAT 4956 (lines 12 and 13 on the front) says there were 4 planets visible during the period between sunset and moonset on the 1st evening of the 3rd month. The observations indicate that 2 planets were in front of Leo (and therefore near each other), another planet was above Scorpio, and another planet was opposite Leo. Even if specific names of the planets are ignored, this is impossible for the required period asserted by the Watch Tower Society, supposedly starting the evening of 30 June 588 BCE.
Between sunset and moonset on the evening required by the Watch Tower Society (and the next few evenings), Jupiter was far below the horizon, Saturn was behind the sun (on the far side of the solar system), Venus had already set before sunset, and Mars and Mercury were on opposite sides of the sky to each other. So with only 2 planets visible and neither near each other, the observations cannot be reconciled at all (even if we pretend the planet names are ambiguous).
But on the correct dates (starting from the evening of 20 June 568 BCE), Mercury and Mars are very near each other and both in Leo, Venus is still in the sky after sunset and to the west of Leo, and Jupiter is above Scorpio, completely consistent with the tablet.
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362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
The onus is on you to prove your case that vat 4956 sky is -568 if your approach is to argue.
I don't need to prove any such thing. The scholarly consensus is already that VAT 4956 refers to events in 568 BCE. The astronomical facts confirm it, and I have provided that information. But this isn't some novel interpretation I've come up with, so there is no onus on me to prove it. It has already been proven. Adherents of a religious denomination just don't like it.
I haven’t seen that scholar added anything more to falsify -568 solstice.
Indeed. It is physically impossible for the reference to the solstice in VAT 4956 to refer to the solstice of 588 BCE. It perfectly fits 568 BCE, along with the other observations in 568 BCE.
I want to add as an end point that wt doesn’t use the vat to extrapolate -607, only Bible interpretation.
This is a red herring. The Watch Tower Society attempted, poorly, to assert that VAT 4956 is consistent with their beliefs about 607 BCE, and I'm not aware that anyone has ever suggested that the Watch Tower Society bases its 607 dogma on VAT 4956. However, the Bible also does not support JW interpretations about Babylon's 70 years.
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362
Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday
by slimboyfat infor newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
I don’t need your rhetoric because it has zero effect on my methodology of ascertaining facts.
I’ve seen no evidence that you have a methodology. In fact I’ve seen no evidence about anything from you at all.
What is your evidence that VAT 4956 supports 588 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year? And remember, you have indicated that you don’t trust the software used by the Watch Tower Society for supposedly arriving at that conclusion, so you can’t fall back on that. Don’t forget that same level of rigour that you expect from everyone else.