Posts by Jeffro

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

Fisherman:

Non-sequitur: first you say Jesus prophecy was fulfilled then you say Jesus failed to return. Your fallacious style.

Wow. 🤦‍♂️ You're really not good at this.

I didn't say Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled, or that he made a prophecy. There is no evidence that Jesus' said anything attributed to him in the Bible. It is widely recognised by scholars that the gospels weren't written until after 70 CE, after the events in question (though parts of Mark may have been written a little earlier). The only part that was actually 'prophecy' was the expectation that Jesus would return. Which he didn't.

But even if I had contradicted myself, which I didn't, that's not what a non sequitur is.

A heavenly Messianic kingdom cannot be trampled upon. Jesus was alluding to heavenly Jerusalem.

No, he wasn't. Luke 21:20-24 quite clearly identifies the city of Jerusalem on earth, not some esoteric 'heavenly Jerusalem', and the trampling of Jerusalem in Revelation 11:2 refers to the same event. The concept of 'heavenly Jerusalem' is mentioned later in Revelation, but only as a city that comes down out of heaven after literal Jerusalem was destroyed earlier. The Bible never mentions 'heavenly Jerusalem' being 'trampled'.

Whereas, we have shown consistency.

🤣 You can't even get the order of events of the great tribulation and Jesus' presence right. So... no.

I suppose, JW eschatology is consistently wrong, so maybe you mean that.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

Person:

May I ask what in your opinion is Jerusalem that will be trampled for 42 months?

It was the period from 66-70, from the Roman response to the Jewish revolt until Jerusalem’s destruction. According to the gospels, Jesus said the ‘appointed times of the nations’ aka the ‘great tribulation’ would happen within a generation of his death, and then Jesus would return shortly after. Of course, Jesus didn’t return and Christians have been making excuses ever since, leading to nutters reinterpreting passages from Revelation to conveniently apply to ‘our time’.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

Jorden:

What if we put all that aside for the moment. Just focus on what the current UN chief said about heading into WW3 and he told all 193 member states "to wake up and realize thatsolidarity is the only way out of disaster."

Jorden once again trots out the same tired examples of opinions of people who have no function or control over the UN, which of course are fallacious appeals to authority. He then falls back to a general statement from the UN chief who remarked about the importance of solidarity. Run for the hills! Someone said it’s good to cooperate instead of fighting! Of course, Jorden assigns more meaning to the statement than it actually contains, but if the UN chief had actually said that ‘solidarity’ means ‘replace all the governments with the UN’, Jorden would quote that instead. Of course, he said no such thing.

It’s also worth noting that a key element of the conspiracy theory is that the imagined scheme is necessarily bad (or worse than the status quo), which is an example of black and white thinking. And no, that doesn’t mean I endorse the ‘new world order’.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

Your so-called 'fine material' is simply COJ's GTR rehashed with a few pretty coloured charts.

I’m sure Fisherman will be along any moment to ‘request’ proof for that claim, having such high standards of evidence as he does. 😂

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

😂 Honest readers can see that I have already dealt with the substance of what he is classifying as facts.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️ I respond where I see fit for the benefit of honest readers. I’m not under any obligation to reply or to stop replying at any time for any reason and subject to change without notice. But also, as previously indicated, I am not discussing with the conspiracy theorist, I am telling other readers where he is wrong.

Notice how the conspiracy theorist tries to appeal to his information as being factual, but this is true only to the extent that it is a fact that the organisations exist and it is a fact that some people have expressed opinions. He also characterises general statements about solidarity as a more specific agenda without any factual basis. There is no factual basis to the claim that the UN seeks to bring about WWIII in order to swoop in and take over, nor is it a fact that any of it has any relevance to superstitious interpretations of the Bible.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

Above, I said:

it doesn’t work particularly well if the questions are fallacious

I anticipate that Jorden will query this. Specifically, his line of questioning was a false equivalence because my use of scriptures to rebut the JW view is quite different to not just rebutting their view but going on to promote an alternative superstitious view that is widely recognised as a conspiracy theory.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jeffro

Jorden:

When it comes to what I have said and asked to you about the UN what about it do you find to be a superstition/conspiracy?

To ‘support’ his position of the conspiracy, he irrelevantly posts evidence that the organisation exists, along with some unfounded opinions and misinterpretations of other vague statements.

First, when you speak to a JW about 607 and the 70 years, etc... do you do not refer to Scriptures and WTS publications in order to show their nonsense?

Sigh… yes, obviously I refer to the material that they claim supports their position. And I also have not ridiculed you for also mentioning scriptures in the context of showing them that their interpretation of the 42 months is incorrect. (As a word of advice, though it can be a good strategy to ask questions to guide a discussion, it doesn’t work particularly well if the questions are fallacious and the other person already understands what you’re doing.)

Both the history of the period and the genre of Revelation confirm that the 42 months referred to the Roman occupation and destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70 CE. It is not only unproductive but also superfluous to replace the JWs’ incorrect superstitious interpretation with an alternative incorrect superstition.

When it comes to what I have said and asked to you about the UN what about it do you find to be a superstition/conspiracy?

🤦‍♂️ Don’t pretend that the notion that it’s a conspiracy theory is some novel idea I’ve just come up with on my own. (Though my own independent analysis of the Bible already confirms that those aspects have no relevance to any such conspiracy.)

New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory) And no, I haven’t needed to refer to or rely on that article to know the conspiracy theory is unfounded.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️ Having been thoroughly trounced from every angle, poor ‘scholar’ whines unintelligently about ‘pretty charts’ while his crony Fisherman fallaciously gurgles praise for his role model. I think we’re done here. Honest people can assess the material here for themselves.