The whole JW doctrine of the apostasy after the first century is nonsense. In their pitiful Ezekiel book from 2018, they claim that the second century ‘apostasy’ was a ‘spiritual exile’ analogous to the exile to Babylon. But that would mean the ‘apostasy’ was itself a ‘punishment’, but without any actual reason to warrant punishment in the first place.
Posts by Jeffro
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43How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
Probably. It is possible that an eclipse at or around the time of his death may have enhanced superstitions that Jesus was in some way divine.
2. He was buried.
According to the narrative, he was placed in a tomb, not buried. What actually happened to his body is unknown.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
Amazing. Sad event made people sad.🙄 This is just padding to get the special number 12.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
No actual evidence for this apart from contradictory stories from decades later.
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
That people ‘believed’ something isn’t ‘proof’ of anything, and the details of what they believed happened are only in available in embellished stories written decades later. Even in the stories, the disciples don’t initially recognise the person as Jesus. 🙄
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
Wow. Superstitious people became convinced of something. Many things were taken as portents at the time so an eclipse, earthquake, or even a shadow could have made them think Jesus was back.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
Arguably, but the purported value of the ransom was really the more important aspect. The claim that Jesus was resurrected actually diminishes the value of the ‘sacrifice’, since he supposedly got a massive reward for a comparatively bad weekend.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
Sect based on superstition spread in a time when superstition was even more rife than it is now. Nothing remarkable about this.
9. The Church was born and grew.
Sect based on superstition developed further. Still nothing remarkable about this.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
Entirely wrong. Sunday became the primary day of Christian worship many years later due to ‘pagan’ influence when Christianity had spread beyond a Jewish religion and the majority of Christians were gentiles.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
This is a tradition only.
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic and opposer).
Paul’s version of his conversion contradicts the version in Acts, particularly the details about where he went immediately after, indicating that at least one version is unreliable. JWs (and other groups) today tell stories of formerly ‘violent opposers’ who converted, so Paul’s actual conversion to Christianity isn’t remarkable. Paul reports having visions on more than one occasion, at times not even knowing whether he was ‘in the spirit’, (and also alludes to ‘a thorn in the flesh’) which could suggest an underlying psychiatric or other condition (e.g., epilepsy, ergotism, syphillis etc) that could exacerbate superstitious beliefs.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
Sea Breeze:
I gave you 12 reasons for my position.
You didn’t. You listed some elements of a narrative without any evidence of any supernatural event. You tediously parrot creationist drivel and ignore anything inconvenient to your view. Just stop while you’re behind.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
While the above is far from "proof". There aren't any good explanations to explain these facts away.
The only correct part of that is that it’s far from ‘proof’. It is entirely unremarkable that a Jewish sect started around the teachings of an itinerant rabbi (though anything he actually said is unknown and cannot be separated from stories made up about him decades later). The beliefs that he was magical or that he was resurrected were likely enhanced by an eclipse around the time of his execution. People in the first century also believed that Nero would return from the dead (Nero Redivivus) making the story of Jesus’ resurrection even less remarkable for the time. When early Christian expectations (that Jesus would return within a generation) were shown to be an obvious failure, they doubled down and made up new interpretations, just as 19th century Christians did after the Great Disappointment. See also ‘cargo cults’ for how easily such superstitions develop into sects.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
Sea Breeze’s position, a position common among uneducated or deliberately ignorant creationists, is that ‘Information is non material’. This kind of thinking is required for their superstitions about things like ‘prayer’ supposedly conveying information to (or in) an imaginary ‘spirit realm’ with no actual means of transmission. Back in reality, information is never independent of a physical medium.
Sea Breeze rather inelegantly offered ‘the number 3’ as an example of ‘information’ and then clumsily offered that inanimate objects could never ‘encode information’. I should not have to explain the quite obvious contradiction …
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
So again, can you please explain how complex coded information appears from chemicals?
I already told you that was a false equivalence! Here’s a more detailed explanation from ChatGPT because I’m done trying to explain simple things that you could look up for yourself if you were honest.
One of the fallacies that some creationists use is the argument that "information" is independent of chemicals. This argument often arises in discussions related to the origin and development of life, where creationists attempt to undermine scientific explanations and promote the idea of intelligent design. However, it is important to note that this argument is based on a misunderstanding of both information theory and the nature of biological systems.
In the context of biology, "information" refers to the complex arrangements of molecules, particularly nucleic acids such as DNA, that encode the instructions for building and maintaining living organisms. These molecules are made up of chemical building blocks, and their arrangement and interaction determine the genetic information that is passed from one generation to the next.
Creationists who argue that information is independent of chemicals often claim that information cannot arise from purely natural processes and therefore requires an intelligent designer. They often assert that the complexity and specificity of biological information, such as the genetic code, cannot be explained by random chemical processes alone.
However, this argument overlooks the fact that the laws of chemistry and physics govern the interactions of molecules and can give rise to complex and ordered systems. Natural processes, such as chemical reactions and natural selection, can produce the patterns and structures that we recognize as "information" in biological systems.
Furthermore, information theory, a branch of mathematics and computer science, demonstrates that information is fundamentally tied to physical systems. In information theory, information is quantified as the reduction of uncertainty or the increase in knowledge gained from receiving a message. The representation and transmission of information always rely on physical carriers, whether it be electromagnetic waves, ink on paper, or the sequence of nucleotides in DNA. Therefore, the claim that information can exist independently of physical substrates or chemicals is not supported by the scientific understanding of information theory.
In summary, the argument that "information" is independent of chemicals, as used by some creationists, is based on a misunderstanding of both information theory and the nature of biological systems. It fails to consider the role of natural processes and the laws of chemistry in the emergence and organization of information in living organisms. -
77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
🤦♂️
You really need to stop relying on your creationist go-to sites for this stuff. And your response bears no resemblance to the method used in the article I linked to.
Back in reality, scientists have determined that self replicating molecules can develop without direction, and biological evolution is an established fact, whereas there is still no evidence whatsoever for the existence of deities, let alone your preferred one.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
But, isn't that just kicking the can down the road?
Says the person who believes that an infinitely complex being just always existed…
Can you provide any examples of complex information arising from a natural process?
Argument from ignorance. I am not a biologist. Also, your use of the term ‘information’ in this context is a false equivalence. Aside from that, the amino acids necessary for life form spontaneously even in space, and more primitive cells would only require a sufficient combination of amino acids, water, and a lipid membrane. For more detail, ask a biologist. A real one, not just cherry picked quotes from one of your creationist go-to sites.
A quick search shows that spontaneous development of replicating molecules is certainly possible. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jacs.9b10796 Of course, this is never good enough for creationists, because they will always demand to know what did happen rather than what could happen—an entirely hypocritical approach compared to their ‘god can do anything’ responses to problems with the irrational tales in Genesis.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
Not aware of anyone who refers to themself as an evolutionist. Also pretty ironic a demand from someone who pretends their magical sky friend (that can’t be demonstrated to exist at all) just always existed forever without needing any beginning or creator.
The most recent common ancestor got the information from its ancestors.
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77
How would you define RELIGION, and why?
by Fernando in"judge" rutherford defined or classified all religion as "a snare and a racket" in his books "religion" and "enemies".. after rutherford's death in 1942, his protege, watchtower vice president, and aclu darling, hayden c. covington, in the early 1950's, for reasons of legal expedience and supremacist aspirations, suddenly converted the watchtower into a religion.. this was done alongside one of the most audacious, spurious and longstanding swindles of the us legal system.
this involved twisting philippians 1:7 and misrepresenting the watchtower's true nature, objectives and activities.. .
this meant that it became necessary for the watchtower to suddenly reclassify and redefine religion (w51 1/15 p. 43 new legal booklet well named; w51 8/15 p. 511 questions from readers; yb75 p. 161 part 2 "for gladys bolton...").. two new watchtower classifications were suddenly created: "true religion" and "false religion".. now "true religion" meant "true beliefs" whilst "belief" in ever changing watchtower doctrine was equated with the one "faith" of scripture.. all this while the watchtower increasingly and maliciously truncated, obfuscated and hid the liberating full "good news" (or unabridged gospel) of scripture, which it lyingly claimed (in court) that it was actually "defending and legally establishing".. how would you have defined religion before learning ttatt?.
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Jeffro
Notice how the creationist continues to erroneously equate the terms ‘descended from’ with ‘single microbe became’, and also continues to falsely claim that a ‘most recent common ancestor’ is the same as ‘simplest form of life’. This is what happens when your main sources are Creation Ministries International and Answers In Genesis. 🙄 Stay in school, kids.
And the cherry picked quotes are lifted from ‘Intelligent Design’ websites such as Uncommon Descent. Never trust a creationist using a quote that contains an ellipsis… 😉
And no one has a job title of ‘evolutionist’.