Posts by Jeffro

17

It's the end of the world as we know it!!!!!!

by ColdRedRain in

jw
friends

minneapolis and saint paul got hit with a tornado, miami got hit with a hurricane, and it's heading west to houston, a hurricane took out new orleans and an airplane is about to crash at lax!!!

armageddon!!!!!

the jw's were right!!!!!!

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

you don't honestly think he is genuine do you?

The real question is, "does he?"

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

ackack,

Its just that I personally find Scholar's logic to be tiring just reading it

Personally, I'm yet to find 'scholar's' logic.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

Thanks Seymour,

Unfortunately that table is neither complete, nor convincing. An appropriate table will list the starting points and lengths of reign of each king with no significant gaps.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

No, the Society's methodology is biblically based as it gives the biblical narrative precedence over secular records. For example:

1. Fall of Babylon in 539

Fact: The Society accepts 539 based on an astronomical diary, though it rejects the testimony of such sources everywhere else, and in general says they are not reliable for absolute dating. (See Insight, vol1, p454)

2. Release of Jewish captives under Cyrus in 537

Fact: Jeremiah 25:12 indicates that Babylon would be judged after 70 years. Isaiah 45:1 prophesied the judgement of Babylon. Daniel 5:26-31 indicates the judgement of Babylon. The only valid end-point for 70 years is 539.

3. Seventy years of exile-servitude-desolation

Fact: The Hebrew words used do not require 70 years of complete depopulation. Jewish exiles were taken in Nebuchadnezzar's 23 year, and it is only conjecture that these were Jews who had fleed to Egypt. The initial prophecy by Jeremiah regarding the 70 years is clear that it refers to 70 years of Babylonian power.

4.Fall of Jerusalem in 607

Fact: 539 + 70 = 609. Co-incidentally, secular authorities indicate that the Assyrian empire came to an end in 609BC.

Each of these events are well attested biblically and lead to the only possible date of 607 for the beginning of the Gentile Times.

Fact: At Luke 21:24, the original text employs the Greek word 'esomai', meaning 'will', referring to a future event where it indicates the beginning of the Gentile Times, which therefore cannot refer to a period that started prior to 70AD. (Literally, "and they will [esomai] fall to mouth of sword and they will [esomai] be led captive into the nations all, and Jerualem will [esomai] be being trampled by nations, until what should be fulfilled and will [esomai] be appointed times of nations.")

Your chronology is based upon a prior loyalty to Babylonian records and does not provide you with a definite chronology for the seventy years and the Fall of Jerusalem which are both subject to much dispute by scholars.

Fact: The chronology I have arrived at is based solely on the bible.

The seven years of madness for Nebuchadnezzer affected his kingship or reign but are not presented as such in any of the secular records despite their claimed accuracy. Therefore, one must conclude that such records are falsifiable by that seven years period.

Fact: There is no evidence that Nebuchadnezzar's rule was given to another king during the seven years, so he still would have had that title even if not present, just as was Nabonidus still king during his own absence from Babylon.

Indeed, the twenty year gap as determined bu celebrated WT scholars does indeed falsify the traditional secular chronology which is largely based upon Ptolemy's Canon.

Fact: There is no evidence for the imagined additional 20 years in the Society's chronology.
Fact: No-one celebrates the anonymous WT scholars.
Fact: It is grammatically poor to use 'indeed' twice in the same sentence.

The Hebrew words in conjunction with the context of the specific prophecies make it quite clear that seventy years of complete desolation was absolutely required. It is only the higher critics and apostates that seek to reduce the period to fifty years if at all to sustain their meaningless chronology.

Fact: Jeremiah's initial prophecy indicates the significance of the 70-year period as of Babylonian power that would end with it's fall.
Fact: The Society agrees that the similar words directed at Tyre ("that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years") do not indicate the full 70-year period applying to Tyre.

In the matter of Tyre, it was prophesied by Jeremiah and Isaiah that Tyre would receive judgement from Jehovah and that proved to be a period of servitude to Babylon. Correct.

Fact: Society publications contradict each other regarding the significance and end-point of the 70 years.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

ackack,

You're never going to get a complete list of the neo-babylonian kings. You know why? Because the Organization has never bothered to provide a list.

Yes, I know scholar can't actually provide a complete list of Neo-Babylonian kings, because the Society's model is simply wrong.

However, on 23 July 2003, 'scholar' was asked (by 'rem') to provide such a list, and his response was a challenge to provide a chart of the Judean Divided Monarchy.

Not long after joining this discussion board this year, I provided such a chart, available here. Scholar was forced to give credit to my work, and could not indicate anything that legitimately conflicts with the bible in my work, which accurately aligns the scriptures with secular history. (My tabulation of Judean kings was drawn manually and solely from the Bible, and only after they were completely tabulated did I source the secularly established reigns of Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian & Persian kings, which aligned remarkably well.)

So 'scholar' owes me a complete chart of Neo-Babylonian kings consistent with the Society's interpretations.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

Jeffro & others:
Why do you continue to feed the troll?

Because the troll looks funny when he dances.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

The twenty year gap arises because of a difference in methodology and interpretation between our chronology and yours.

Yes it does; the Society's methodology conflicts with the Bible, and is therefore wrong regardless of the methodology employed by others. My chronology (which I came up with based solely on the bible, and happens to match exactly with many scholars) does not conflict with a single scripture, when taking into account the actual meanings of the words, which the Society misapplies to shift the focus of the seventy years.

The book of Daniel discloses the fact that Daniel was absent from the throne for seven years and yet the Babylonian records fail to account for this historical fact,

Daniel never had the throne of Babylon. I will assume you meant Nebuchadnezzar. The bible suggests that some kind of madness befell him. It does not say that anyone else took over the kingship. According to the Daniel's Propechy book,

John E. Goldingay cites several parallels to Nebuchadnezzar’s madness and restoration. For instance, he states: “A fragmentary cuneiform text apparently refers to some mental disorder on Nebuchadnezzar’s part, and perhaps to his neglecting and leaving Babylon.”

So it seems that Babylonian records do indeed document that Nebuchadnezzar went through some kind of condition. However, the throne was not passed to someone else during this time, most likely ruled by his administration for that period, so for documentary purposes, it was still during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, just as Nabonidus was still considered king when his role was chiefly perfunctory.

The twenty year gap exists and falsifies traditional chronology and proves that the seventy years of servitude, exile and desolation fulfill the biblical evidence.

I couldn't have put it better myself. The twenty year gap does indeed falsify ("make false by altering or adding to") the traditional chronology.

Your presentation of the Divided Monarchy faisl to account for the seventy years as years of desolation. Higher critics and apostates are seduced by false stories and those who disbelieve the Bible, many such critics are critics of the book of Daniel itself demonstrated in disbelieving its propheticsm.

It has previously been borne out on this forum that the Hebrew words shamem, chorbah, and za'am do not require complete depopulation. Your mishmash of a chronology fails to account for these facts, and ignores the clear synchronicity between Isaiah 45:1, Jeremiah 25:12,26, Daniel 5:26-31, as well as many other details. My chronology accounts for 70 years of Babylonian power, and it is consistent in recognizing that the full 70 years of Babylon need not apply to Jerusalem any more than they applied to Tyre. To quote the Isaiah's Prophecy book:

True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.”

In conflict with its other publications, the Society rightly states here that the 70 years "represents the period of Babylonia's greatest domination."

Still waiting for your complete table of Neo-Babylonian kings.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

The twenty year gap is not the figment of our imagination but exists in reality because there is in fact such a gap between our chronology and your pretend fluid chronology which cannot be agreed upon by current modern scholarship.

Yes, there is a 20-year gap between the Society's interpretations and reality, but the cause of the 20-year gap indeed lies in the minds of the Society's leaders, and therefore is rightly a figment of their imaginations.

349

The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets

by VM44 in

could the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?

the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.

for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.

Jeffro

You are not only an apostate but a blithering idiot to boot.

"Blithering idiot"? Once again you violate the forum guidelines. I await your retraction.

The twenty year gap is not the figment of our imagination but exists in reality because there is in fact such a gap between our chronology and your pretend fluid chronology which cannot be agreed upon by current modern scholarship. No one on this forum has in anyway shape or form invalidated WT chronology because our c hronology is based upon secular and biblical evidence, elevating the significance of the seventy years as a historical and biblical fact. The only thing you offer is a compromise, a compromise of integrity wherein you forsake Scripture for the false stories of the apostates and higher critics.

Once again, you indicate your flawed reasoning. You suggest that because scholars don't agree completely on 587/6, and that the Society agrees with itself on 607, the Society must be right. To illustrate your reasoning, if five people say I look 30, another five people say I look 31, and one person says I look 50, then I must be 50 because the other ten people can't agree. That variance exists among (actual) scholars' findings, and yet they all point to about the same period, works against, not for, your argument.

You really need to read more and self educate yourself about chronology. Remember, it is about methodology and interpretation. Write these two words on your forehead as thes are cardinal chronological maxims according to the great scholar.

I think you should start with lessons in grammar before honing your chronology skills. Not sure why writing on my forehead would be a good idea either. My reasoning is already consistent with the body of scholarly thought. Why do you feel the need to make it seem as though I need to "self educate myself"?