Posts by Jeffro

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

Jeffro:

It is entirely possible that is someone else. There is no basis for asserting that a different J. F. Rutherford visited from elsewhere, not that there were more than one J. F. Rutherford in the town itself.

Well... those sentences were badly botched, and in a manner that confused the meaning. Sigh. Was in a hurry.

It is entirely possible that it was someone else. There is no basis for asserting that a different J. F. Rutherford did not visit from elsewhere, or that there could not be more than one J. F. Rutherford in the town itself.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

I guess it's remotely possible that it is someone else, or that some other kind of mistake is involved (newspapers are known to make mistakes) but that doesn't make it likely.

It is entirely possible that is someone else. There is no basis for asserting that a different J. F. Rutherford visited from elsewhere, not that there were more than one J. F. Rutherford in the town itself. Further, John F. Rutherford was a prominent figure in various lumber companies, being the president of at least two, and those lumber companies had strong ties with, and many members in, the Knights of Pythias. Being a member of both the Knights of Pythias and the Woodmen, it would not be in the slightest bit surprising for him to be both a toastmaster at Knights of Pythias events, nor to speak on behalf of the Woodmen, both as indicated in the available sources.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

slimboyfat:

More to the point it seems to be entirely in character.

Fraternal groups were quite popular at the time, and it if were him (which has not been established), it would be entirely unremarkable.

It is still not remotely clear why this potential 'discovery' merited multiple 'wows' and other 'excitement' in the initial post and some of the subsequent responses, since early membership of some group does not indicate any allegiance to or affiliation with that group later.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

Athanasius:

The editors of the local newspapers, Boonville Advertiser, Missouri Democrat, and the Central Missouri Republican, were aware that there would have been confusion if there were two Rutherfords in Boonville with the same initials, and would have taken steps to avoid this by using the person's full name or listing his occupation.

That, of course, is just your assumption.

Moreover JFR was not always referred to in the local papers as J. F. Rutherford. Sometimes as Joe Rutherford, attorney Rutherford, Joe F. Rutherford, and once as "Battling Joe" during the 1892 Presidential campaign.

The fact that Joseph was sometimes referred to as things other than J. F. Rutherford has no bearing on anything unless one of those more specific references says anything about membership of the Knights of Pythias.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

sparky1:

Since you have made this claim, please provide documentation that John F. Rutherford was from Missouri. That would help to confirm your assertion and get the discussion moving in the right direction.

I actually realised later that I may have mixed up some sources when I said that, and for that I must apologise. (I thought I read it somewhere, but I cannot find it.) However, since one of the sources said the gatherings represented members from multiple states, it is not at all remarkable to have a visiting speaker. Further, I also stated earlier that even if John F. Rutherford were not the individual involved, that still would not mean that it had to be Joseph. So even if John F. Rutherford could be discounted (which has not been established), it still would not give credence to the assertion that it must have been Joseph.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

Onager:

Jeffro, you would do well to remember 1Cor 13:1 - "If I post three times in a row in a thread, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal."

Ha ha. Um... I think you may have taken some poetic license there.

You've posted FIVE times. You're too invested in proving your point in an argument that you say doesn't matter.

Oh no! Not... FIVE times! I hope the guardians of fake Bible verses will forgive me for this egregious arbitrary number of sequential posts. I responded to a number of separate posts that were made in my absence. I didn't realise there was a limit. Whether Joseph Rutherford was a member of some particular group in the 19th century doesn't matter. But standards of evidence still matter, especially if people are going to update Wikipedia articles based on flimsy assumptions.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

The funniest thing about all this is just how badly some people want it to be that Joseph Rutherford had some association, as if it would imply something nefarious.

It is not at all established that Joseph Rutherford was the 'J. F. Rutherford' in some newspaper articles mentioning fraternal groups. And it's also possible that an otherwise prominent individual in a community could be invited as a guest speaker. (Though one of the articles touted as 'proof' has the J. F. Rutherford speaking "on behalf of the local Woodmen" rather than identifying him as a member of the Knights of Pythias. The same article says the gathering was represented by members from three states, so it is not unrealistic that a person could visit from Arkansas.)

But if Rutherford were a member of some fraternal group in the late 1800s, so what? It would not necessitate that he had any allegiance to the group later on. So why the rabid excitement about the possibility?

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

sparky1:

I found court records in the case of Godell v. Bluff City Lumber dated January 21, 1893 wherein J.F.(John) Rutherford was noted as being the vice-president and secy/treasurer of the Bluff City Lumber Company. Until proven otherwise, I stand with ILoveTTATT2.

That would be foolish indeed. For even if John were not living in Boonville, it would not mean he were not the indiviudal involved (and though cars were not common, there were certainly trains on which visiting speakers could get about). Added to that, even if John were not the individual concerned, that still would not constitute evidence that the only candidate would be Joseph. Hence, your logical fallacy is false dichotomy.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

I have not contested your Wikipedia change, since for now I only have indirect proof.

It would be foolhardy indeed to 'contest' the Wikipedia change armed only with what you imagine constitutes 'proof'.

78

Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

wow.

wow.someone just sent me a scan of the boonville advertiser newspaper in which it mentions j.f.

Jeffro

ILoveTTATT2:

He always appears in articles using the same initials, but it's not questioned whether it's him because there are other factors such as a) mentioned in relation to lawyers or b) mentioned in relation to the democratic party.

Red herring. The articles referring to membership of Knights of Pythias don't refer to matters "in relation to lawyers", and speaking on matters of finance and politics is not specific to lawyers, and is certainly in the purview of someone who goes on to be president of various companies, including the Clio Lumber Company and the Bluff City Lumber Company. Hence, articles referring to lawyers may well refer to Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and have no bearing on the identity of the Knights of Pythias member.