Posts by Jeffro

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Be that as it may, for the Olivet Discourse requires interpretation on two levels: a first-century fulfilment with the destruction of Jerusalem and a later fulfilment with Christ's Parousia beginning in 1914 CE. The direct statements from vs 15 31 prove that there is a mixture of the timing that was to occur prior to 70 CE and after 1914 CE.The chosen ones in the first instance refer to Jesus' disciples and the latter refers to His anointed ones living after 1914 or at the time of His Parousia.

None of the statements in Matthew 24:15-31 say, suggest or require any "mixture of the timing", and no part of it indicates anything about 1914. But feel free to specify the "direct statements" that you imagine support your position.

Incorrect. The chosen ones referred to in vss.20 -22 are a different group as to timing as this group are of the first century and the chosen ones are of a future time, the time of His Parousia or when the Son of man will appear in glory. Plain and simple!!! LOL

Thanks for demonstrating once again that you can't point to anything specific in the source material to support your (the Watch Tower Society's) position. Instead, you just regurgitate JW dogma.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

You only have to read those pericopes that deal with or mention the 'chosen ones' and the part that they play in the outworking of the Olivet Discourse. The Olivet Discourse has and will continue to be the subject of interpretation but ours is better or superior to your interpretation because we see that it is to a large part -eschatological especially from vs 29 ff in Matt 24 notwithstanding that from vss. 4-28 has noth a dual fulfilment in prophecy and history.

Drivel. The 'chosen ones' are mentioned in verses 20, 22 and 27 of Matthew chapter 24, wherein it says that after they survive the 'tribulation' (which is 'cut short on their account'), then the 'parousia' occurs at which time they are 'gathered'. None of this supports the JW dogma that the tribulation happens during the 'parousia'.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Events that are expected come at the appropriate time and not the time of our choosing and the events that did occur give us confidence that future, expected events will occur at the appointed time.

This is simply magical thinking.

Jesus' presence or Parousia is described by many events which proved that he was present marked by its definite beginning as King ruling from the appointed time of 1914 CE to be climaxed by the Great Tribulation with the coming of the Son of Man for such events are built on the earlier fulfilment of prophecies or signs pertaining to Jerusalem. In short, the events of the First century in response to that first of three questions undergo the future fulfilment relating to Jesus' answer to the two questions in Matt. 24:3.

You're just spouting JW indoctrination. But as far as what the Bible actually says, Jesus' 'parousia' is expressly described as only being after the 'tribulation', and it has nothing at all to do with 1914.

Nothing that actually happened in 1799, 1874, 1878 or 1914 was actually relevant to any stories in the Bible. Rutherford subsequently ditched Russell's claims about 1799, 1874 and 1878 to focus on 1914, but all of it remains superstitious nonsense. A war began in 1914, and the Watch Tower Society has latched on to that ever since, but as far as what Russell had actually 'predicted' (and current JW dogma), it was an entirely different thing and in the wrong month.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Jeffro
And 1914 is not there. It is only there to those who are willing to accept a man-made organization's convoluted assumption based non-scholarly speculations. And that's the truth.

Not sure why you're attributing someone else's comment to me. Anyway...

Luke 21:24 with its 'Gentile Times' puts 1914 right there in the centre of Lukan Eschatology and it is there because one can easily discern the dual application of the Olivet Discourse based on a literal fulfilment in the first century then telescoping into a much larger and future fulfilment characteristic of events evident from 1914 CE.

Entirely wrong. The grammar of the original text of Luke 21:24 indicates a period that hadn't started yet, and Revelation 11:2 identifies the period as 3.5 years. It has no association with anything in Daniel.

32

Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast in

how do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.

i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.

it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

What was once the Garden of Eden is now under a portion of the Persian Gulf

Various sites have been proposed as locations for the Garden of Eden, but none are in any way verifiable.

In the program a scientist using satellite imaging found the channels of all four of the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14 which Genesis says pinpoints the location of the Garden of Eden!

The location of two of the rivers is entirely speculative, and the 'discovery' relies on distorting details of the story. But even if Eden were 'found', it would lend no more credence to the story in the Bible than finding New York would 'prove' Spider-Man is real.

Jeffro, you are thus correct in saying the flood story based on a local flood in Mesopotamia, but it was an emense flood.

It is only 'correct' to the extent that floods are a relatively common thing that happen to people who live near water. It isn't some kind of notable discovery that 'there was a flood' in a place where flooding could reasonably be expected to happen. Nor is it remarkable that flood stories around the world would include consistent themes of people surviving a flood in order to write about it, and the borrowed flood myth in Genesis is typical of such stories.

32

Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast in

how do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.

i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.

it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.

Jeffro

Simon:

the WTS are young-earth creationists wether they like it or not

They are day-age creationists.

Though they have stepped away from directly stating that the 'creative days' were 7,000 years each, they still never say the 'days' were millions or billions or years, only ever saying that all the 'creative days' together may have been "many thousands" of years (though Insight says "at least thousands"), and they have never expressly stated that the 'creative days' were not 7,000 years each. (Though they allow for the period between 'the beginning' and the 'first day' to be millions or billions of years.)

32

Date of Adam's "Creation?

by Slidin Fast in

how do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.

i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.

it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.

Jeffro

truthlover123:

If Adam was "made" outside the garden as it indicates, the instance when he was placed in the garden would be the start of the creation date, would it not?

No. Obviously it’s a fictitious creation myth. But in the context of the story, Adam’s age at death is unambiguously stated, and not derived from his stated location at any particular time. Your suggestion would fall in the category of fan-fiction.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Fisherman:

In other words:
37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.38For as they were in those days BEFORE the Flood...

You seem to be attempting to associate the 'flood' in the analogy with the 'tribulation'. If that is your aim, you are plainly wrong. The events described are explicitly described as being after the tribulation, and the 'flood' as used there is analogous to the 'gathering (or what some call the 'rapture') of the chosen ones' who have already been through the 'tribulation' (which would be 'cut short on their account'). The order of the purported events in Matthew 24:29-42 is quite clear. Matthew 24:40-41 in particular confirms that the 'presence' is not some protracted period incorporating events leading up to the tribulation, or the tribulation itself. The period leading up to the presence is directly analogous to the period leading up to the flood, and the 'presence' is analogous to the unexpected arrival of the 'flood' itself.

But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is REVEALED.

The word rendered 'revealed' is not linguistically associated with 'parousia' at all. However, in context, the verse reflects the 'sign of Jesus' presence' that Matthew explicitly describes as appearing after the tribulation.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Fisherman:

The sign of the parousia ironically includes the sign of the son of man seen by the enemies when it is too late.

No. "The sign of the parousia" is "the sign of the son of man", it doesn't merely 'include' it. You are conflating the response to the initial question 'when will these things be' with the response about the 'presence'. Jesus' response indicating the 'parousia' (Strong's G3952), which includes the 'gathering of the chosen ones', is only mentioned in connection with the sign that would appear after the 'tribulation' had ended. No part of the events leading up to the 'triublation' are described as Jesus' 'parousia'. In Jesus' response (in Matthew chapter 24), the word 'parousia' appears only in verses 27, 37 and 39; it doesn't appear at all in the other 'gospels'.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Fisherman:

The text describes the sign of the son of man before and after the tribulation begins.

Entirely and unambiguously incorrect. The 'sign of the Son of man' is explicitly described as appearing only after the 'tribulation' has ended. Earlier events (as a preamble to the 'tribulation') that you are conflating with the 'sign of the Son of man' are explicitly described as an indication that "he is near", not that his 'presence' had already begun.