Posts by Jeffro

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

WT scholarship

🤣

Dan.2::23,29 refers to the Grecian World Power and not to the Seleucid Kingdom according to WT scholarship. The duration from 331 BCE to 30 BCE and in its latter days was divided up into four kingdoms which included the Seleucid Kingdom.

Ha ha. You can't even get your own beliefs right (setting aside the fact that Daniel 2:23, 29 are the wrong verses as well, but I provided the right ones, 32 & 39). Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy, pages 54-55:

The copperlike world power continued only until 30 B.C.E. when the last of these four kingdoms—the Ptolemaic dynasty ruling in Egypt—finally fell to Rome.

Similarly, the Seleucid period is indeed included in the JW interpretations of the corresponding elements in chapter 7 & 8.

Your claim that vss. 33; 41-43 covers the period from Alexander to Antiochus IV is your opinion based on no evidence

Whilst I did indeed independently arrive at the correct time period for these verses, it is also the mainstream scholarly consensus, so claiming it is just ‘my opinion’ is irrelevant and misleading ad hominem.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

https://www.academia.edu/24822317/IS_DANIELS_SEVENTY_WEEKS_PROPHECY_MESSIANIC_PART_1

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

Jeffo, thanks for informing me that the WT's idea that the Jews were especially expecting a Messiah around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel comes from a Christian tradition. Do you have a source that the idea is from a Christian tradition, instead of from a historical source (prior to 30 C.E.) saying some Jews had come up with the idea from their study of the book of Daniel?

Christians are the only ones who make the claim.

In the first century, the Jews were under Roman rule and there were Jewish groups that expected the 'messiah' to liberate the Jews, but there was no specific expectation he would appear in 30 CE (though Jesus' ministry as described in the Bible would have begun in 26 CE). And Jesus didn't fill the role of what the Jews generally expected (or expect) of the 'messiah' anyway.

Because the Jews viewed (and view) Daniel among the Writings rather than the Prophets, they weren't generally looking to Daniel to point to the arrival of the 'messiah'. Of course that doesn't mean that no Jews at all interpreted Daniel that way, though there is no indication that they specifically made any such claims before '30' CE (and the arithmetic doesn't work for the correct year, 26 CE, anway; and that's before you get to the problem that Daniel doesn't say the 'messiah' would be 'cut off' at 'the half of the week' as claimed by JWs and similar Christian denominations, but rather only after the '62 weeks' when those denominations say is when he first appeared). There was a sect of Judaism that sprung up in the mid-first century that accepted Jesus as the Jewish messiah, with a post hoc rationalisation (i.e. the 'ransom') for why he died rather than liberating the Jews from the Romans. That group significantly diverged from the beliefs of Judaism due to Roman influence. Today, we know it as Christianity.

The only references to Daniel in the NT were written not only decades after Jesus' death but also after the Jewish revolt in 66 CE, and the earliest NT books (i.e. Paul's writings) give almost no biographical details of Jesus at all let alone that they were expecting Jesus right when he appeared.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

'scholar':

Nonsense, there are no references at all to the Seleucids in chapters 2, 7 or 8 but only to a part of ch.11 as mentioned in a previous post.

Haha. Poor deluded 'scholar'. It must make things hard having so much cognitive dissonance. Even in the JW interpretation, the following verses refer to the Seleucid period:

2:32, 39: in JW dogma, the 'copper kingdom' (incorrectly) includes the Macedonian and Seleucid periods up until 30 BCE (in reality, verses 33 and 41-43 cover the period from Alexander until Antiochus IV)
7:6: the four wings of the leopard represent Alexander's divided kingdom, two of which are the Ptolemies and Seleucids (in reality verses 6-8, 19-22 and 23-25 refer to the period from Alexander through to Antiochus IV)
8:8, 22: as with chapter 7, the 'great horn that was broken into four' depicts Alexander's divided kingdom including the Seleucids and Ptolemies (in reality, verses 8-12 and 22-25 cover this period)

The fact that there are any references to the Seleucid period in Daniel is evidence enough, but the very obvious references to that period in chapter 11 are sufficient to definitely place the composition of Daniel no earlier than the mid-2nd century BCE.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

Disillusioned JW:

The WT has written that about the year 30 C.E. a number of Jews were expecting the arrival of the Jewish Messiah, and that such expectations were based upon their calculations of the 70 weeks prophecy in the book of Daniel. [Is that a false teaching of the WT or were Jews back then really doing such?]

The Jews were always expecting a messiah at some point, but the notion that they were especially expecting one around 30 CE or that it was because of anything in Daniel is a Christian tradition. (Also, Jesus’ ministry would have run from 26-30 CE, and the JW dates for his ministry are also dogmatically asserted based on their interpretations of the ‘70 weeks’.)

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The remainder of Dan. 11 pertains to the Roman Empire.

Well that’s wrong even according to JW nonsense. But no, no part of Daniel refers to the Roman Empire.

I am still awaiting your proof that the entire book was of 2nd century BC composition and deals wholly with the Seleucids.

Already provided. But I also already said that some of the stories are adapted from older tales (for example the story supposedly told by Nebuchadnezzar in chapter 4 incorporates details from The Prayer of Nabonidus). I also never claimed that it “deals wholly with the Seleucids”, as it also contains details about the Neo-Babylonian, Achmaenid and Macedonian periods.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

So you produce cogent facts that prove a 2nd-century composition.

You already did:

reference applicable to the Seleucid Period is confined to a few verses in Dan. 11:5-19

Of course, the entire remainder of chapter 11 also refers to the Seleucid period, along with other references in chapters 2, 7 & 8, but I have low expectations about the quality of your responses anyway.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

In the case of Daniel such a commandment 'to seal up' proves it was a book of prophecy written at the time the dreams and visions were received which are dated historically.

‘Sealing the book’ could be a literary device ‘explaining’ why the book ‘appeared’ only during the 2nd century BCE. But Daniel 10:27 refers to a different book to the one at Daniel 12:1.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

The Roman Empire came into existence long after Daniel was written with the advent of Augustus Caesar in 27 BCE which was foretold and described in Dan.11:20 thus proving that Rome existed long after Daniel's time of writing in the 6th century BC.

Wrong as usual. Daniel 11:20 alludes to Heliodorus being sent (around 178 BCE) by Seleucus IV Philopator (ruled 187 - 175 BCE) to demand a tax from Jerusalem’s temple treasures, hence an exactor. It has nothing at all to do with a census (that the author of Luke places in the wrong year) that would not require people returning to the place of their birth anyway.