Posts by Jeffro

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

That is your opinion I simply notice that the intercalary month is featured on the same line as the year 588 BCE and its insertion thereof in my mind raises a legitimate question regarding the beginning of the following year of 588 BC.

He can't even properly interpret a table. No wonder he accepts JW doctrines.🤦‍♂️

We are dealing with the data in VAT 4956 and not the data of P & D and that data demonstrates that regarding Neb's 37 th year that Simanu began in May.

Wow. No, doofus, Simanu began on 21 June in that year. But you believe it started on 1 July, remember? It’s Nisanu that you incorrectly believe began in May.🤦‍♂️

You've been sufficiently trounced yet again. Just go away.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

The simpler fact is if you are going to refer to the tables then quote the table correctly and PD lists for the beginning of Nisan is April 4 and not April 3 for the year 588 BC.

I wasn't quoting the table when I correctly referred to the Babylonian custom of reckoning the day from sunset. Anyone with a basic understanding of the subject would realise that my reference to "the evening of 3 April" is the day of "4 April", and that this is why other sources (including The Watchtower) use notation such as "3/4 April" for this purpose.

The fact is that PD shows for the year 588 BC that there is an intercalary month or extra month was added to the preceding year 0f 587 BC which means that the New Year began not in April but May 588 BC.

It's things like this that show 'scholar' to be thoroughly inept or brutally dishonest. 🙄

'scholar', maybe read this slowly so you understand... When referring to years BC, smaller numbers are more recent than larger numbers. The intercalary month in early 587BCE only more strongly confirms that there was no intercalary month before Nisanu of 588BCE.🤦‍♂️

But here's another hint for you... the year that normal people call 588BCE is actually called 608BCE in JW chronology, so you shouldn't be looking for an intercalary month there anyway. The year that JWs call '588BCE' is what normal people call 568BCE, and it does have an intercalary month before Nisanu. That intercalary month is the reason why Nisanu of 568BCE began on 23 April instead of 25 March. (I have considered the possiblity that the dimwitted Watchtower writers looked at the PD table for 568BCE, saw "5/23" for the start of Aru for that year, and took it as "2/3 May" instead of "23 May". In any case, the JW reckoning is quite impossible.)

VAT 4956 shows differently and is not a contrivance as the eclipse dated July 15 588 matches well with the eclipse mentioned in VAT 4956 -3 Simanu which is further supported by the tablet's reference to an additional month which means that the New Year did not start until May2/3 which is is well explained in the footnote 17.

Since Simanu never begins in July, and because 588BCE in normal chronology is 608BCE in JW chronology, you're obviously doubly wrong. But this is what you get when you start with your conclusion and then desperately try to make the facts fit around it. 🤣

VAT 4956 - Lunar eclipse on 15 Simanu (Babylonian 3rd month) -

Yes, VAT 4956 here refers to an eclipse in Simanu, which always begins in May or June on the Julian calendar in the Neo-Babylonian period.

Therefore Simanu began 15 days earlier -

Well, strictly speaking, 1 Simanu was 14 days earlier. But I wouldn't expect you to start being accurate now...

There was a lunar eclipse July 15 588 BC Julian calendar
Thus, the first day of Simanu would be June 30/.1 July 588 BC Julian calendar

You've already committed the fallacy of assuming your conclusion, but let's see where this goes... 🤣 Since Simanu always begins in May or June, July 15 can never be 15 Simanu, so an eclipse on July 15 in any year of the Neo-Babylonian period cannot be the eclipse on 15 Simanu. And you're referring to a year from PD's tables that would actually be called 608BCE in JW chronology. 🙄

Therefore, Nisanu would have begun two months earlier on May2/3 588 BC

Which is, of course, impossible.

But when we look at the correct year, 568BCE, we see there was indeed an intercalary month before Nisanu as confirmed by PD & VAT4956, and the eclipse on 15 Simanu is readily identified as the one that occurred on 5 July 568BCE.

Normally, according to P&D the new year would have begun on 4 Nisanu-3/ 4 April 588 BC - Julian calendar
VAT 4956 states that an extra month was added after the 12th month Addaru of the preceding year which then means that the new year of 588 BCE did not start until May 2/3.
Thus, the date of this lunar eclipse in 588 BC well fits the data on the tablet, VAT 4956

PD already includes all the intercalary months, including Adar II starting on 5 March 568BCE. There was no need to add an extra month immediately before Nisanu of 588BCE, and the PD tables show that Adar II never begins in April (hence the Watch Tower Society's 'requirement' for one here is special pleading).

Any honest person with a decent understanding of the subject would immediately recognise that you have the wrong year if you're trying to make Nisanu start in May. Hence, you are again shown to be inept, dishonest, or both.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

The claim in the November 2011 Watchtower about the eclipse date is particularly amateurish. The asserted date for starting Nisan on 3 May (which is immediately wrong from the outset) in 588BCE (but what JWs would call 608BCE) loosely conforms to being about 30 days after 4 April (though it’s still a day off). But because what JWs call 588BCE was actually 568BCE (where the expected Adar II precedes Nisan), their asserted date of 3 May for the start of the month isn’t remotely consistent with the previous month starting on 23 April. But apparently they don’t have to try too hard to convince thoroughly indoctrinated JWs.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

‘scholar’:

At last, Jeffro now states more correctly that NIsan for 588 BCE begins on April 4 as shown in P&D's table for this is reality and does not show April 3. because PD begins from midnight and not the evening.

This is typical of the nonsense the apologist tries. In one comment, I correctly stated that a Babylonian calendar day started on the evening of April 3, which is the day of April 4. There was no inconsistency at all, but the dishonest ‘scholar’ tries to claim something was acknowledged ‘at last’.

However, PD show that in 588 BCE there was an intercalary month Addaru II preceding Nisan 588

No. It doesn’t. You are blatantly dishonest.

Note that there was actually an intercalary month before Nisan of 587BCE, which is of no help to the lying apologist.

VAT 4956 mentions an eclipse, of the third month Simanu on the 15th day- June 30/July 1

Simanu never starts in July. The false association of an eclipse on 15 Simanu (5 July 568BCE) with one on 15 July 588BCE is a Watch Tower Society contrivance, which only further demonstrates their dishonesty and yours. (Note that ‘scholar’ has again claimed here that the 15th day of Simanu was July 1, but the Watch Tower footnote actually asserts that 15 Simanu was 15 July and that Simanu began July 1.)

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

You are not very smart, are you?

Quite smart, and significantly more than you.

The tablet indicates that a certain eclipse namely 15th Simanu which can fit the eclipse dated July 1 588 BCE.

Note that 'scholar' inadvertently or dishonestly says the 15th day of Simanu was 1 July, but the Watch Tower footnote actually says "If the eclipse fell on July 15, 588 B.C.E. according to our Julian calendar, then the first day of Simanu would be June 30/July 1, 588 B.C.E." But Simanu never begins in July. 1 Simanu always corresponds to part of May or June.

The Babylonian month Simau is the third month

Yes. Yes it is. 1 Nisan = March/April. 1 Aru = April/May. 1 Simanu = May/June. (I am, of course, aware that if you go back a few thousand year earlier than the Neo-Babylonian period, then the difference between the Julian and Gregorian calendar systems can shift the months outside that range, but that is irrelevant for the period in question.)

so 588 BCE is now properly considered for Neb's 37th year

Definitely not, despite your attempts at mangling the Babylonian calendar in imitation of the Watch Tower Society.

with a 20-year difference between 586 and 588 BCE.

Okay, probably a typo, but that just makes you look kind of dumb.

Thus 607 BCE is firmly established based on historical, biblical and astronomical evidence.

No, you've just further provided more evidence that 607 is definitely wrong.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar' will continue to deny reality. But for honest readers, the following extract from Parker & Dubberstein confirms, as I previously stated, that the first day of Nisan 588BCE (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar's 17 year) was 4 April and the first day of Nisan 568BCE (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year) was 23 April. Babylonian Chronology - 626B.C.-A.D. 75, Parker & Dubberstein, page 28:

And of course, not only do Parker and Dubberstein's tables show that Nisan didn't start in May in 588BCE, but the 21 pages of tables further confirm that Nisan never starts in May (and Simanu never begins in July either for that matter despite the dishonest Watch Tower footnote). Incidentally, "2/3 May" (Julian calendar) as claimed by the Watch Tower Society was also never the first day of the second month in any year during Nebuchadnezzar's reign, and the table above shows 4 May as the first day of Aru in 588BCE (which would be 3/4 May starting from the previous evening).

I did make one error in previous comments though: there was no intercalary month immediately prior to Nisan of 588BCE (but there was one at the end of that year), which just means the Watch Tower Society's lie about their misapplication of VAT4956 is even worse.

But despite the facts in black and white (and some highlighter), 'scholar' and other JW cronies will continue to lie and reject reality.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️ ‘scholar’ knows very well that none of the sources support the Watch Tower claim that Nisan began in May in 588BCE. It is purely Watch Tower conjecture based on their incorrect assertion that Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year ‘must’ be 588BCE. The correct year is 568BCE, with which all the secular sources agree.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Now he pretends that days weren’t reckoned as starting from the previous sunset to try to convince readers that I got ‘3 April’ wrong. 🤦‍♂️ That is the day of 4 April, doofus. (Even his precious Watch Tower footnote mentions “April 3/4”, but dishonestly pretends that wasn’t because Adar II had already been added.) And he shoots himself in the foot because citing P&D simply confirms that Nisan of 588BCE definitely didn’t begin in May. 😂

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Pierre’s responses are even more pathetic. ‘Maybe Hillah is in a different direction’ (but there is irrigated farmland in the other directions anyway). 🤦‍♂️ And no, the modern city of Tyre isn’t in a different location, and includes the Sidonian Port that was used to conquer the city from the north after the causeway plan failed (and the heritage protected area in the south-west are Roman ruins). Just go away.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Haha. Poor ‘scholar’ really seems to believe that something that literally never happens happened in just the right year to support JW dogma. Despite the fact that JWs know the Memorial is always in March or April. 😂

And the claim about Nisan beginning in May in the footnote isn’t from the source ‘scholar’ cites, it is only an assertion by Watch Tower. And Parker and Dubberstein’s tables do not indicate the year starting in May either. Nisan of 588BCE began in the evening of 3 April. But in the year indicated in VAT4956, 568BCE, Nisan began 23 April. In both cases this was because Adar II had already been added so that Nisan wouldn’t begin too early. Such a liar!