Posts by Jeffro

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

The appearance of the summer solstice on the 9th of the 3rd month is irrelevant to the lunar eclipse of the 15th of the third month for it is simply one of the many astronomical observations computed or observed contained in the tablet.

Huh?

Maybe read slowly so you understand.

The... 15th... is 6 days after the... 9th.

The... solstice.. on the... 9th... is necessarily... within a day of 29 June.

6... days... after... 29 June... is... 5 July.

It is physically impossible for the eclipse in question to occur on 15 July.

(I hope that last bit wasn't too fast for you.)

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

Now all that you have to do is explain the relevance of the date of the summer solstice of 'the 9th' on Line '16' of the tablet and the lunar eclipse of the 15th' on Line '17'.

I don't actually have to do anything, and the request is somewhat banal.

But since it is established that the summer solstice necessarily occurs around 29 June (Julian calendar) for the given period, the 9th day of the 3rd month must correspond to around that date. And it does exactly correspond for the established chronology of 568 BCE. Of considerably less importance, the eclipse 6 days later is therefore reaffirmed as falling on 5 July.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

How come you have not mentioned this matter in your Blog on your website?

It hadn't seemed necessary. Like others, I had only responded to what the Watch Tower Society had actually claimed, and of course they don't mention that the date of the summer solstice in VAT 4956 immediately shows them to be wrong. But, at my own leisure, I will add mention of this additional issue just to even more thoroughly show the Watch Tower Society's position to be completely and utterly wrong.

Further, you need to provide a scanned copy of such tabulations for the solstice for the years 586 and 588 BCE.

Do I just? 🤣 I don't really need to do any such thing. But if I find a conveniently accessible source, I might do so if I feel like it. Irrespective, the range of possible solstice dates is quite definite. (And it's 568BCE, doofus. Not 586.)

The said scholar is of the opinion that changes concerning the Earth's orbital distance from the Sun has no impact on observations of the Moon either observed or computed

Once again demonstrating your ignorance. But obviously it would affect the position of the moon relative to the various constellations.

thus such a solstice has no relevance to the subject at hand and that is why WT critics are silent on this matter- a red herring!

Again, you wish.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Well aren't you are a demanding one! 🤦‍♂️

I couldn't be bothered jumping through too many hoops for the likes of you, since I've already demonstrated the range of possible dates for the solstice, but a quick search shows the dates to be in the range I stated (note that a couple do extend into the very early morning of July 1, the latest being 1:07am, but those are back around the 8th century BCE). But it sufficiently demonstrates that for the period in question, the solstice was indeed consistently around 29 June (Julian calendar).

Jedael, S. (2016). Counting Days in Ancient Babylon: Eclipses, Omens, and Calendrics during the Old Babylonian Period (1750-1600 BCE). Unc Charlotte Electronic Theses And Dissertations. (Though the solstice dates are not central to the article's purpose.)

'scholar' will, of course, bleat that I haven't included the exact year of 588BCE, but it is physically impossible for the solstice dates to have wildly varied for just those years.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

Really, then you must explain why?

Wow. 🤦‍♂️The summer solstice is an astronomical event. Changing the date of the solstice so extremely would require a significant alteration to the earth's axial tilt and/or distance from the sun (very significantly more than the range of its elliptical orbit).

Even if it is argued that such a catastrophic change did occur, any such change would make it impossible for modern researchers to accurately predict the positions of any stars or planets in the Neo-Babylonian period.

If in fact, the summer solstice has any relevance as our critics make no comment on this fact.

Maybe other commentators haven't raised it because the other problems with the Watch Tower Society's flawed analysis are generally sufficient to show them to be wrong. But I am quite clever as well, so I don't mind being first.

Perhaps this is just a 'red herring'!

You wish.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Though 'scholar' has already been thoroughly trounced, it's also worth noting that VAT 4956 identifies the summer solstice on the 9th day of the 3rd month.

The solstice is usually 20 or 21 June in recent years on our modern calendar; it can be as late as 23 June but no later. For Julian dates in the distant past, the period shifts because the Julian calendar differs by about a day for every 400 years compared to the Gregorian calendar. Hence, for the Neo-Babylonian period in question, the Julian date of the summer solstice must fall within the range of 26-29 June (or 30 June if we round up the difference between 588BCE and now to 2800).

For 568BCE, the 9th day of the 3rd month corresponds to 29 June (Julian calendar), which is a perfect fit for the solstice in that period.

But for the Watch Tower Society's nonsensical assertion about Nisan beginning on 3 May in 588BCE, this would put the summer solstice on 9 July, which, again, is impossible.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Nice non sequitur. 🤷‍♂️

You're still wrong.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

Not so.WT Bible Chronology arose from two sources namely Nelson Barbour and Christopher Bowen an Anglican Rector.

🤦‍♂️Barbour was an Adventist you doofus. (I suppose you'll try to irrelevantly 'argue' that he wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist, probably not understanding that Adventism is broader than just SDAs.)

Rubbish. The hole that has been dug is for those who support 586 or 587 BC for the Fall of Jerusalem now disproved by a more accurate representation of VAT 4956 which confirms 588 BC for Neb's 37th year. Thus such additional evidence along with the 70 years proves with a comparison with NB Chronology the missing 20 years and the calculated date of 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem.

Correct year is definitely 587BCE. Not 586BCE. And very obviously not 607BCE. I've already demonstrated that the Watch Tower Society's mangling of VAT 4956 is impossible.

However, VAT 4956 says differently as shown by WT scholarship made public so that the scholarly community can reap the benefit. Scholars are very interested as shown by some published criticism on this new understanding which the said scholar has to hand. You seem to be very troubled by those anonymous researchers but the said scholar is rejoicing in their anonymity.

VAT 4956 identifies a year that had an intercalary month prior to Nisan, and no intercalary month at the end of that year. 568BCE fits both criteria. 588BCE fails both. Not to mention the more specific observations of the stars and planets that definitely disprove the JW dogma, which is why they pretend the names for the planets are ambiguous.

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

'scholar':

WT scholars have a long-withstanding interest in biblical scholarship and that is why from the early beginnings of the Bible Students who advanced and promoted the subject of Bible Chronology

The Bible Students adopted earlier Millerite (Adventist) chronology. They've consistently been wrong, and they've never been at the forefront of anything.

and such a similar interest has now been enhanced with a more accurate view of this tablet - VAT 4956 with its description of Neb's 37 th year.

Hardly. They've just dug themselves a deeper hole by doubling down on 588BCE supposedly being Nebuchandezzar's 37th year (despite 588BCE actually being what JW chronology calls 608BCE). By claiming that VAT 4956 isn't consistent with 568 BCE, the Watch Tower Society can never fill the 20 years of its missing neo-Babylonian chronology without admitting its reinterpretation of VAT 4956 is complete rubbish.

The data in this tablet with its notable lunar eclipse of 15th July and in the third month Simanu means that the year began in May 588 BC so the evidence is there for the benefit of mainstream scholarship.

Simanu never begins in July (or any day after 27 June), just as Nisan never begins in May, so this automatically tells anyone with even a passing understanding of the subject that the Watch Tower Society's interpretation is obviously wrong. And the intercalary month in early 568BCE is exactly where VAT 4956 says it should be. No one in mainstream scholarship is interested in adopting the Watch Tower Society's nonsense. (And certainly not without knowing who the supposed 'researchers' were. 🙄)

362

Just read that Carl Olof Jonsson died yesterday

by slimboyfat in

for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?

he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.

the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.

Jeffro

"fresh and new examination".🤣 No, 'scholar', it's a religious sect's desperate attempt to distort the chronology of the neo-Babylonian period, intended primarily for its gullible compliant members. It has no acceptance among actual scholars or anyone else who has even a passing understanding of the subject. It is immediately obvious that you have the wrong year if you find that Nisan "must" begin in May, which it never does. Imagining that Nisan uniquely starts in May just where JWs need it to is especially naive.