the founder of (what is today called) jehovah's witnesses was a self-styled "pastor" charles taze russell.. his family was scottish presbyterian.
his mother must have inculcated all the fearsome lore of hell into her son at a very early age.
he often chalked on sidewalks warnings of hellfire for passers by as a child.. somewhere along the line he tangled with an atheist in a debate and was left torn to shreds by the beating he took.
Ralph Woodrow, the author of the article you linked to, is an honest man. He did not hesitate to say that he was mistaken. Even better, he has made good faith efforts to combat the errors in Hislop's work and his own.
He has taken heat for this. Some of his former readers accuse him of being forced to retract his earlier views, or worse, selling out. To face up to that sort of abuse takes character.
Cathy
the number of my books in academic libraries.
i have authored several scholarly books and monographs about the jehovahs witnesses.
my books and articles on the watchtower and related topics are found in hundreds of university, college and other libraries, and have also been translated into 12 languages.
Does anyone remember a comment I think someone made here years ago, about the Society destroying old WT literature?
Apparently they wrote to congregations and explained so many new congregations had recently formed and did not have a well-stocked library; so they asked congregations to send their old WT literature back to Bethel, where it would be passed on to these new congregations.
But allegedly the old literature was all burned when it arrived in Bethel ...
Anyone else remember this, or is it a figment of my imagination?
See, this is the type of thing I heard over 25 years ago. I used to believe it. However, I now think that it's probably an urban legend, only it would be too far under Snopes.com's radar to bother about.
Unless someone has heard it directly from the Society itself (GB member, letter from one of the departments, etc. -- NOT "A friend heard" or "my brother says"), I tend to take that charge with a grain of salt.
Here's why:
Some assembly halls proudly display the old literature and Photo-Drama equipment in display cases. Lots of JW collectors get together to compare finds and to trade books and magazines and such, or scour the congregation for additions to their collections. There are collectors at various Bethels, including Wallkill, who make no effort to hide their collections from their superiors.
In fact, a newer problem for those in charge is dealing with unscrupulous JWs who dupe fellow JWs (especially the elderly "anointed") out of their books and magazines and tracts in order to resell them. I know of at least one JW in Europe who is currently facing disciplinary action for shady dealings on eBay.
I'm not at liberty to give details, but it's true. So they're definitely NOT burning their heritage.
The "Proclaimers" book is partly responsible for the upsurge in collecting. It provides lots of pictures and information about the older literature and other collectibles, and it also inoculates modern JWs against shock at finding things like 1874, not 1914, as the year of Christ's return, etc.
That's my take,
Cathy
having problem pasting this...
All I remember is that Wynne was funny, smart, and never ONCE in the time she had me as her charge did she try to "witness" to me. I was very grateful. I also remembered thinking at the time that she would have been a great friend to have.
Bethel should have tried to arrange all their tours the same way. Then again, it was the '80s, and all you fire-breathin' 'postates were trying to take things over, so I guess they needed to be careful.
An odd side question: I did a quick Google search on her husband's name. Did he have a well-known physicist as his Dad? George Pake had four sons, one of whom is Warren Pake. George P. was a physicist who was a pioneer in computing.
Was Warren a JW all his life, or a convert?
Cathy
people are driving for miles to the few shops that have opened....many pioneers leave there own congregation territory to buy some 1 hour drive away....i took a box to my witness work mates...they acted like i was giving them gold!
poor witnesses.
they do taste excellent fresh....coffee shops like "starbucks" never took off here....were not big on coffee.
There's also the Krispy Kreme Challenge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krispy_Kreme_Challenge
Participants race from N. C. State University to the KK store downtown, eat a dozen donuts, then run back. First to make it back without barfing is the winner!
All profits go to North Carolina Children's Hospital.
I mistakenly said that the first store was the one in Raleigh. According to Wikipedia, it was in Winston-Salem.
Cathy
people are driving for miles to the few shops that have opened....many pioneers leave there own congregation territory to buy some 1 hour drive away....i took a box to my witness work mates...they acted like i was giving them gold!
poor witnesses.
they do taste excellent fresh....coffee shops like "starbucks" never took off here....were not big on coffee.
We live in Raleigh, North Carolina, home to the original Krispy Kreme store downtown. When that "Hot Donuts NOW" sign is lit, the line of cars for the drive-through can stretch down the block. If you go inside, the wall to the factory has a window so you can watch the donuts being made. My kids got a kick out of watching those airy puffs travel along the assembly line under a waterfall of pure sugar glazing, after which workers scooped them into boxes and handed them directly to the drive-thru workers.
I'm not a fan of them myself, but they're a big part of the culture here.
Cathy
the number of my books in academic libraries.
i have authored several scholarly books and monographs about the jehovahs witnesses.
my books and articles on the watchtower and related topics are found in hundreds of university, college and other libraries, and have also been translated into 12 languages.
Well, before this devolved into a flamefest, this thread had my attention. Randy has gone to sit under his fig tree in the shade, which is perhaps wise. However, I shall press on with some relatively uncontroversial (I hope) observations:
1) As someone who deals in old WT literature, I have some anecdotal observations concerning the whole "book burning/destroying" theme. I remember hearing the accusation that JWs would go around to used bookstores and buy up the old lit to destroy it. Variations on this theme included, in some form, an order direct from Bethel to do so. I used to give it some credence before I met some JW collectors.
Now as a book dealer, a fair number of my customers are faithful Witnesses who are like Stan Milosevic (not one of my clients) in Canada. They collect the old books as an historical record of the JW movement's earliest days. They feel a connection to the sacrifices that JWs made, rightly or wrongly, in past years. Lots of them collect it to display, not necessarily to read. J. F. Rutherford especially seems to have a fan base among some older JWs who see him as a great fighter for "truth".
So many of these collectors exist, in fact, that I think the whole idea of getting rid of the "old light" by destroying it is little more than an urban legend. I am talking here about the WTs own literature, not "apostate" books. Those I can believe are stolen and defaced on a regular basis. I know that my public library never keeps Crisis of Conscience on the shelves for more than a few months at a time before it is "lost."
As for official WT books -- Maybe a few JWs take it upon themselves to get rid of incriminating evidence, but many more buy the old stuff to look at the pretty covers and display them, not read them. It also affects some JWs' status in a positive way in their congregations. At least a couple of JWs buy and hold their finds so that they will be able to show those resurrected in the kingdom what weapons were used in spiritual warfare. I believe Chester Harris, who used to post to a lot of ex-JW boards at one time, had that as a motivation behind his early collecting.
2) I only know Jerry Bergman's work directly in two ways: one, as the pseudonymous "Havor Montague" and his article in the 1977 Social Compass journal, and as author of a comprehensive annotated bibliography of JW and related literature. The latter is indeed comprehensive but rather sloppy. I don't know who did the editing, but whoever it was did a lousy job. There are typos and mistakes in the citations all over the place.
It would probably be prohibitive to print a revised edition, but I know at least three people, myself included, who would be willing to provide corrections and some research to that project. I don't know if it is true, but I have heard that the offer has been made by others and refused, at least for now.
Still, it's a useful work for a collector to haves ince it references magazine and newspaper articles as well as books, booklets and tracts.
Cathy
yesterday, i went to a funeral of a long time friend of my extended family.
it was a nice service that lasted about 45 minutes.
there was the usual catholic rituals and communion.
You can read more about Catholic practices and beliefs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, of course, or the simplified Compendium to it. Then there are popular Catholic authors, such as Mark Shea (I link to his site from my blog), and he's got tons of links to other Catholic bloggers in his sidebar. He's written some good books on specific theological topics, including This Is My Body and By What Authority?
As for books with more general information, there's Catholicism for Dummies (http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-0764553917.html), and Why Do Catholics Do That? (http://www.amazon.com/Why-Do-Catholics-That/dp/0345397266), which are both good introductions to Catholicism.
Then there's Catholic music, literature, and art which have been inspired by the Catholic liturgy (Bach's Mass in B Minor, Mozart's Requiem; books by G. K. Chesteron, Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy; art of all sorts from before the Renaissance to Salvador Dali and beyond).
Take your time; it's a big subject. :-)
Cathy
yesterday, i went to a funeral of a long time friend of my extended family.
it was a nice service that lasted about 45 minutes.
there was the usual catholic rituals and communion.
Hi Choosing,
That is a beautiful prayer you mention for a funeral. I don't know that much about the Catholic religion, but I used to attend midnight mass on Christmas Eve as a child. Always thought it was beautiful with the candlelight and choir singing. I believe it was in Latin however, so I didn't understand the words. The message of peace and grace still came through.
I think it's actually more beautiful in both the Latin and the more archaic English:
In paradisum deducant te Angeli:
in tuo adventu suscipiant te Martyres,
et perducant te in civitatem sanctam, Jerusalem.
Chorus Angelorum te suscipiat
et cum Lazaro quondam paupere
æternam habeas requiem.Requiem æternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
May the angels lead thee into Paradise; at thy coming, may the martyrs receive thee and bring thee into the holy city, Jerusalem. May the choirs of angels receive thee, and with Lazarus once poor, mayest thou have eternal rest.
Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and may perpetual light shine upon them.
Cathy
having problem pasting this...
Hi Cathy,
You may be thinking of Wynne Warren, rather than Wendy. The description you gave of her sounds right. She was then engaged to, and later married, a Bethelite named Warren Pake. She was pretty good friends with my wife and I (Gloria worked in the Computer Department for the last couple of years we were there. Wynne was from the midwest, St Louis if I remember right. Later, they left Bethel and moved out West, maybe Arizona, not sure about that. She was a pistol.
As for the cute guy in typesetting, I have no idea. I don't remember any cute guys at all up there. :-) But did you notice any of the cute guys in the Pressroom?
Smiling as I write this,
Tom
Oh my goodness, I do believe that's her! I think I remember her telling me she was from St. Louis (or somewhere in Missouri). I often wonder how she's doing. She was SO much fun to go on that tour with! She didn't treat me in a standoffish manner, which I sometimes got from other Witnesses. She was certainly a lot different from the Bethel home tour guide I got later on that same year. That woman was like a robot. You could almost see the script unrolling, pauses and all. It was so "isn't this a grand prospect"-ish. Hey, there were cute guys all over the place there -- I couldn't believe it. Yes, the pressroom was definitely a good place to rest one's eyes, so you were probably there at the time. You and Randy and the other fellas have all held up nicely over the years, too. Personally I think guys look better when they're older -- including my own husband, who is quite distinguished these days. Another story (yes, I suppose I was obsessed about these things back then): I still remember one time when a young fellow and an older man came to my house in Woodhaven in the late 1970s (I had acquaintances in the Rockaway Unit, BTW). Anyway, my jaw must've dropped, or I must've had some comically lovestruck expression on my face, because the older guy almost started to snicker. Too bad they weren't ALL like that ... I suppose that was fortunate in some ways. :-) Cathy oldlighthousebooks.blogspot.com www.oldlighthousebooks.com
yesterday, i went to a funeral of a long time friend of my extended family.
it was a nice service that lasted about 45 minutes.
there was the usual catholic rituals and communion.
Thank you for your comments. I want to share a little more with you about the Priest's illustration about the Kingdom. He said and he was speaking to the departed members family-"When ever you sat down to eat a meal together with your Mom, as a family, God's Kingdom was present with you-just like it is now here with you".
I'm not exactly sure what he meant by this -- unless he was referring to the idea of "wherever two or more of you are gathered in [Jesus'] name" then Jesus is with them.
"I imagine the priest meant by the invisible kingdom the citizens of heaven, especially the angels, who are believed to be present at every Mass."
So the Kingdom presence must be among most family meals or other informal ocassions as well? Is that presence contingent on having a blessing at those times?
Well, again, I'm not sure if this is what the priest means, but I think it also has to do with living our faith in the world, and having those who have gone before us around us and praying for us.
Also, depending on what you're remembering, he may have been making a connection between family meals and Holy Communion.
As an aside, I love one of the prayers from the funeral service, which is said toward the end:
May the Angels lead you into paradise; may the martyrs greet you at your arrival and lead you into the holy city, Jerusalem.
May the choir of Angels greet you and like Lazarus, who once was a poor man, may you have eternal rest. Amen
Cathy
