Posts by sinis

17

Last Night an Elder called me,,,,but

by orangefatcat in

i didn't answer the telephone, i just didn ' t feel like getting all riled up as i have enough on my plate right now.. it was the same elder who showed up at my bedside while i was recently in the hospital.

i told the hospitals administration years ago to take my off the jw list for visitations.

so i was quite shocked to see this guy.

sinis

You realize that for like $5.00 more per month most phone carriers will allow you to block certain phone numbers - I have done it in the past and they get the message.

74

Update! Drew Sagan is no longer a Jehovah's Witness

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

as promised here is all of the info regarding what has been going on.

per the last jc with the elders i realized that all i had done was buy time.

they felt that we should be df'ed right on the spot, but because i made a plea to wait for a letter coming back from the wts they decided to hold on taking such action.

sinis

Drew, go one step ahead. Send the elders a letter saying that if they announce that your wife is to be DF'd that you will file a libel lawsuit against THEM. They will have to contact HQ, and I can guarentee you that they will drop the charge, since in my opinion, it is a weak one at best. I have NEVER heard of being DF'd for joining the YMCA? WTF?!?!? They must have had a vendeta against both of you. I would call them on it - at the least you defer your wifes DF'ing until legal gets back to them, you may also want to appeal the decision, I believe you have 7 days.

91

FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?)

by Terry in

iii, p. 712).

vi, p. 137, pp.

cit., pp.

sinis

So, why did Christians just sprout up all of a sudden in the first century sinis? Can I have your opinion?

I'm not saying christanity, as a pagan religion, did not exist. I am saying that the so called holy books are a fabrication after the fact. It would be akin to me starting a new and improved religion with a steady flow of followers. Eventually, it takes off, but I'm no more holier than the shitty religion next to me.

42

Wife and kids left me

by thepackage in

jw
friends

long story short, (i'll post it later), after many years of problems with the wts my wife and kids left me and she has filed for divorce (no adultery was committed).

feeling really sad right now.

i was a great husband and father, however, i could not take the thought of going to any more meetings and have over the last year started to find was to avoid meetings.

sinis

When you get served, if you haven't already, send the local BOE a copy. Ask them where is the biblical justification in a non biblical divorcing? Force them to take action against your wife. In fact I would send a nice letter to Bethel along with a copy of the notice and the cong your wife attends. I would then get any and all information (custody info the witnesses put out) and get a good lawyer, show them what the witnesses teach and tell him that your wifes religion is a threat to your children.

Here's a tid bit. I have a friend, wordly of course, who plays the bars. He has told me numerous times that married women always think the grass is greener on the other side and are constantly cheating on their husbands (not that yours did that). He has told me that NO ONE, thats right, NO ONE wants a married woman or a woman who is recently divorced with kids. All men want is a one nighter. Although this mentality may be different in the cong. I doubt it. If you really love her you may want to wake her up to reality. How will she pay bills? Who will pay for clothes, food, schooling supplies, etc.? God, another man? Trust in god only goes so far. Another man, doubful.

Oh, check your local laws to see if you can file something against your wife such as parental kidnapping since she has bolted with your kids.

91

FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?)

by Terry in

iii, p. 712).

vi, p. 137, pp.

cit., pp.

sinis

John E. Remsburg, in his scholarly work on "The Christ," has compiled a list of forty-two writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the time, of Christ, not one of whom ever mentioned him.
Philo, one of the most renowned writers the Jewish race has produced, was born before the beginning of the Christian Era, and lived for many years after the time at which Jesus is supposed to have died. His home was in or near Jerusalem, where Jesus is said to have preached, to have performed miracles, to have been crucified, and to have risen from the dead. Had Jesus done these things, the writings of Philo would certainly contain some record of his life. Yet this philosopher, who must have been familiar with Herod's massacre of the innocents, and with the preaching, miracles and death of Jesus, had these things occurred; who wrote an account of the Jews, covering this period, and discussed the very questions that are said to have been near to Christ's heart, never once mentioned the name of, or any deed connected with, the reputed Savior of the world.
In the closing years of the first century, Josephus, the celebrated Jewish historian, wrote his famous work on "The Antiquities of the Jews." In this work, the historian made no mention of Christ, and for two hundred years after the death of Josephus, the name of Christ did not appear in his history. There were no printing presses in those days. Books were multiplied by being copied. It was, therefore, easy to add to or change what an author had written. The church felt that Josephus ought to recognize Christ, and the dead historian was made to do it. In the fourth century, a copy of "The Antiquities of the Jews" appeared, in which occurred this passage: "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is know to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
Everything demonstrates the spurious character of the passage. It is written in the style of Eusebius, and not in the style of Josephus. Josephus was a voluminous writer. He wrote extensively about men of minor importance. The brevity of this reference to Christ is, therefore, a strong argument for its falsity. This passage interrupts the narrative. It has nothing to do with what precedes or what follows it; and its position clearly shows that the text of the historian has been separated by a later hand to give it room. Josephus was a Jew -- a priest of the religion of Moses. This passage makes him acknowledge the divinity, the miracles, and the resurrection of Christ -- that is to say, it makes an orthodox Jew talk like a believing Christian! Josephus could not possibly have written these words without being logically compelled to embrace Christianity. All the arguments of history and of reason unite in the conclusive proof that the passage is an unblushing forgery.
For these reasons every honest Christian scholar has abandoned it as an interpolation. Dean Milman says: "It is interpolated with many additional clauses." Dean Farrar, writing in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, says: "That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe." Bishop Warburton denounced it as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too." Chambers' Encyclopaedia says: "The famous passage of Josephus is generally conceded to be an interpolation."
In the "Annals" of Tacitus, the Roman historian, there is another short passage which speaks of "Christus" as being the founder of a party called Christians -- a body of people "who were abhorred for their crimes." These words occur in Tacitus' account of the burning of Rome. The evidence for this passage is not much stronger than that for the passage in Josephus. It was not quoted by any writer before the fifteenth century; and when it was quoted, there was only one copy of the "Annals" in the world; and that copy was supposed to have been made in the eighth century -- six hundred years after Tacitus' death. The "Annals" were published between 115 and 117 A.D., nearly a century after Jesus' time -- so the passage, even if genuine, would not prove anything as to Jesus.
The name "Jesus" was as common among the Jews as is William or George with us. In the writings of Josephus, we find accounts of a number of Jesuses. One was Jesus, the son of Sapphias, the founder of a seditious band of mariners; another was Jesus, the captain of the robbers whose followers fled when they heard of his arrest; still another Jesus was a monomaniac who for seven years went about Jerusalem, crying, "Woe, woe, woe unto Jerusalem!" who was bruised and beaten many times, but offered no resistance; and who was finally killed with a stone at the siege of Jerusalem.
The word "Christ," the Greek equivalent of the Jewish word "Messiah," was not a personal name; it was a title; it meant "the Anointed One."

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html

Lets at least be a little more honest when quoting sources as most of these sources are called into question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Greco-Roman sources
See also: Yeshu and Yuz Asaf
Of the non-Christian writings from that time that have been preserved, very few mention Jesus or Christianity, and for that matter few of their authors showed much interest in Judea or the Near East in general. Nonetheless, there are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger – as well as others. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Of the four, Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the historicity of Jesus (see below). Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about Christus, without historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. Pliny condemned Christians as easily-led fools.
[edit] Josephus
Main article: Josephus on Jesus
Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93. In it, Jesus is mentioned twice. In the second very brief mentioning, Josephus calls James, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ". [33] This is considered by the majority of scholars to be authentic, [34] though a few have raised doubts. [35]
More notably, in the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:
About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. [36]
Concerns have been raised about the authenticity of the passage, at least in part, and it is widely held by scholars that part of the passage is an interpolation by a later scribe. Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree. In antiquity, Origen recorded that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ, [37] as it seems to suggest in the quote above. However, one may construe that when Josephus had written "He was the Christ," he may have simply been referring to Jesus by a name that the Roman people (Josephus' audience) had come to know Jesus as, considering that during the later part of the first century Jesus was simply known as "Christus" throughout Greek and Roman society (as is evident in Tacitus' reference below). If such an interpretation is true, the sentence would thusly be rendered as "He is the one known as the Christ." However, this interpretation is obviously debatable. Michael L. White argued against authenticity, citing that parallel sections of Josephus's Jewish War do not mention Jesus, and that some Christian writers as late as the third century, who quoted from the Antiquities, do not mention the passage. [38] While very few scholars believe the whole testimonium is genuine, [39] most scholars have found at least some authentic words of Josephus in the passage. [40] Certain scholars of Josephus's works have observed that this portion is written in his style. [41]
[edit] Tacitus
Main article: Tacitus on Jesus
Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Romec. 64, he wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. [42]
Tacitus simply refers to "Christus" the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah", rather than the name "Jesus", and he refers to Pontius Pilate as a "procurator", a specific post that differs from the one that the Gospels imply that he held—prefect or governor. In this instance, the Gospel account is supported by archaeology, since a surviving inscription discovered at Caeserae states that Pilate was prefect. [43]
Concerning Tacitus's source, it was likely an imperial record, and it has been controversially speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor. [44] R. E. Van Voorst noted the improbability that later Christians would have interpolated "such disparaging remarks about Christianity". [45] (See also the criterion of embarrassment.)
Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman summarized the historical importance of this passage:
"Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign. We learn nothing, however, about the reason for this execution, or about Jesus' life and teachings." [46]
[edit] Suetonius
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (c. 69–140) wrote the following in 112 as part of his biography of Emperor Claudius in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars about riots which broke out in the Jewish community in Rome around 49 or 50:
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome". [47]
The event was noted in Acts 18:2. The term Chrestus also appears in some later texts applied to Jesus, and Robert Graves, [48] among others, [49] consider it a variant spelling of Christ, or at least a reasonable spelling error. On the other hand, Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful. Some scholars believe it just as likely that this passage is not a spelling error and does not refer to Jesus or Christians. [50]
Because these events took place around 20 years after Jesus' death, the passage most likely is not referring to the person Jesus, although it could be referencing Christians, whom Suetonius also mentioned in regards to Nero and the fire of Rome. [51] As such, this passage offers little information about Jesus [52] , but may provide an alternative epitaph used in speaking about him. [citation needed] "Chrestos" is utilized in the Bible referencing the Lord, "if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious [Gk. crestos]" (1 Pet. 2:3, NKJV).
[edit] Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajanc. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus". The name "Jesus" is not used.
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food—but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. [53]
[edit] Others
Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century. His work has been lost. In discussing Jesus' crucifixion and subsequent darkness, Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, referenced the lost work of Thallus:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun. [54]
Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. [55]
Celsus, though a late second-century critic of Christianity, accused Jesus of being a bastard child and a sorcerer; yet he never questions Jesus' historicity even though he hated Christianity and Jesus. [56] He is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man". [57]
The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentaii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus, who said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate". [58] With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd. [59] There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, and though it is generally thought to have been inspired by Justin's reference (and thus to post-date his Apology), it is possible that Justin actually mentioned this text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification. [60]
[edit] Jewish records
Main article: Yeshu
The TalmudSanhedrin 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following:
On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover. [61]
The name Yeshu (???) uses the same letters as the abbreviation "Y.Sh.V." (????), which scribes use to stand for the longer phrase, "his name will be erased and its memory" (??? ??? ????? Yemakh Shmo V-zikhro), which signifies a Jew convicted of enticing to idolatry, whose name has been blotted out. [citation needed] Thus, this may be referring to somebody other than Jesus. [citation needed]

91

FORGED (!?!?) ORIGINS of the NEW TESTAMENT (!?!?)

by Terry in

iii, p. 712).

vi, p. 137, pp.

cit., pp.

sinis

smellsgood: Fact is, that interval is the smallest of any historical book. It's just a fact. For example, I love Greek and Roman History, and some of what is commonly learned about Rome is from the historian Herodotus (ever read it? You should) To put the NT in perspective, the History of Herodotus (B.C. 488-428) MSS earliest copies we have are around 1,600 YEARS from the time they were written. Wow. Same is true of hundreds of other ancient works. Yet there isn't the same incitement of shock when it comes to judging these books authenticity as is with the books of the NT. Not to mention there are hundreds fewer MSS, hundreds more years apart. That's just unscholarly to not look at these books in light of other ancient manuscripts, it smacks of an agenda.

Its because no one has an agenda, hidden or otherwise, in other ancient "factoid" books. Historians write, religion persuades at any cost necessary. If the NT is so accurate please give me a legitimate outside source that speaks of Jesus, the rabble rouser, that drew such large crowds to Jerusalem and was a thorn in Romes side?

Or how about this refute:

P52 'Rylands fragment' – 5 complete & 9 part-words on one side, 6 complete & 7 partial words on the other.
If we imagine 79 missing words we can derive a passage found in chapter 18

(verses 31-33 and 37-8) of John's Gospel (or the Gospel of Nicodemus for that matter – see link).
This scrap (about 9x6 cm) is used to support a huge weight of traditional New Testament dating.
By taking the earliest possible date for P52 – 125 AD rather than the equally valid 150 AD – and then supposing that John was the last of the 4 gospels to be written, the other 3 gospels are pushed back into the 1st century. Convinced? No, nor am I.
And the Gospel of Nicodemus?
It seems that propagandists for the anti-Christian emperor Maximinus Daia (305-313) and his Christian opponents both concocted fraudulent "Acts of Pilate" (aka "Gospel of Nicodemus").
Clearly, even in the 4th century, the struggle for "gospel truth" was in full spate.

12

Could Brooklyn install security systems that would keep us from the know?

by AK - Jeff in

i mean would it be likely that near future all correspondence and letters could come thru a secure connection, presented verbally to elders by the co or do, or in secure digital format that would be able to trace all users and readers -so that it can be kept out of our hands?.

i am not a technical person in that regard - but it would seem possible that this could be done.

true - fading elders would get access - but if there is a digital trail in the system - if it finds it 's way to jwd or other places - they could soon hunt down the culprits.

sinis

People can hack the most secure defense systems. The more they try, the more will be the urge to leak and hack

I disagree. Commercial software that uses encryption such as 4096 bit RSA, or 256 bit AES, or 128 bit RC5, etc. keys , along with hardware keys (dongles) make it nearly impossible (99.9%) at the moment. Not to mention non commercial applications...

12

Could Brooklyn install security systems that would keep us from the know?

by AK - Jeff in

i mean would it be likely that near future all correspondence and letters could come thru a secure connection, presented verbally to elders by the co or do, or in secure digital format that would be able to trace all users and readers -so that it can be kept out of our hands?.

i am not a technical person in that regard - but it would seem possible that this could be done.

true - fading elders would get access - but if there is a digital trail in the system - if it finds it 's way to jwd or other places - they could soon hunt down the culprits.

sinis

If they were smart they would discontinue the paper trail. They would mandate that each congregation have its own computer, send them one and then install, unbeknownst to the congregation, software such as GoldenEye. Tell the congregation that they are not allowed to print the information, disable saving, printing, etc. and then conduct audits on the computers, remote with GoldenEye, every so often. Oh, and give each elder an ID and pw or only allow access by the PO, etc.

20

Pirate copies of Knocking Director

by jwfacts in

i just received an email from knocking director with the following message.. important copyright note .

please note that the knocking dvd is copyright protected and it is unlawful to make copies of the dvd, even if you are making copies for friends/family and have no intention of selling the copies.

there are reports that a number of people have been making copies of the dvd, under the assumption that it is ok for "educational purposes" or to give as gifts to friends and family.

sinis

Well he is an idiot! If you really want to protect your shit, their are numerous ways to do so. Anyone blindly selling a product without safeguards gets what they deserve. All the software I have written in the past, and currently has safeguards, yes crackers can get almost anything these days, but how many JW crackers have you met? They would really be the only ones interested in the knocking cd. Just my .2 cents...

10

UPDATE - Please critique my speech!!!!

by sinis in

thanks to jwfacts who helped me out.

please feel free to advise me of changes, or additions.

please keep in mind that my speech is supposed to be 6 minutes or less so i don't think i can add a whole lot.

sinis

Thanks, I really appreciate the comments. The professor requires a full sentence outline and then speaking notes. This was the full sentence outline. I haven't added the citations yet, will work on that tomorrow. I realize that its too long. Thoughts on what to cut? Thanks again. It's funny you mention not backing up your arguments with fact, when I was in I found that most public talks were never backed by facts, nor were Sunday outlines ever cited. Makes you wonder...