Posts by zagor

26

Would you like to have an other "User Name"?

by JH in

jw
friends

i love my avatar...and i would like to be called "rat" instead of "jh".. could all the mods and simon unite in the second school and discuss this please?

how about you guys, would you rather another user name?.

rat.

Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???

by zagor in

i've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .

please read again genesis 1:26

this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .

Okay, first thing first, I’ve never really indented to go into any sort of deep argumentative discussion. The purpose of this thread was to have a little fun and show inconsistencies in thinking which many often neglect due to strong beliefs they hold. However, it quickly turned in serious discussion which compelled me to make certain input based on what I know to be true, so here we are.
What do I believe? It is hard to define at the moment, sometimes I even doubt existence of god, everything due to bullshit I suffered as a JW, so it is hard to commit to any sort of belief system. What I’m going by, though, is what I know from logical analysis of things I have studied. Hebrew is one of those things. Having gf whose parents are Greeks makes it possible for me to from time to time get some insight in that direction (as long as I don't over do it, you know what I mean)

Now …

LT & Hmike,
I see that bible only speaks of two persons to be image of god, Adam (Genesis 1:26) and Jesus (Colossians 1:15 –17). Both of them were image of invisible god not really part of the god, but in their own way truthful reflection of god himself. Hence, only two humans who also had title “son of god”. On the other hand, untold number of spiritual creatures, a.k.a angels, was also called “sons of god” Genesis 6:1, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7. Daniel 3:25, which would give strong indication that all of them had to be reflection of god in their own ways.
Since Adam who was lesser creature was called image of god as well as son of god, one could easily conclude that other sons of god also bore certain resemblance to god himself otherwise they wouldn’t be called sons of god, would they? To me it is quite clear that in heavens there is ranking among sons of god (Daniel 7:9, 10, Isaiah 6:1-3, Genesis 3:24, Ezekiel 10:14, Revelation 4:8) and obviously Jesus was and is quite literally a top of the class.
Someone mentioned that it is rather degrading to compare Jesus with “mere” angels. Actually, these are all sons of god; they are angels to us not to god, i.e. massagers (mal'ak).

Of course if you take literalist approach to bible passages then there is possibility to understand quite literally that Holy Spirit is a person. Of course, such a view can lead you to some, to me at least, quite strange conclusions. Please read again Mark 3: 28, 29. (read several different translations some of them don’t just say blaspheme but “speak against god”) Considering those words literally one would conclude that Holy Spirit is actually first person of the trinity above the god himself.
Rather more natural approach would be that even if someone says fault words against invisible god it will be forgiven but if someone denies manifestation of the Holy Spirit which he can see he is condemned, because you’ll remember Jesus said he will send a helper John 14:16, 17 (notice that holy spirit will be in them). That helper made quite visible manifestation including healings and raising dead. That Jesus is subjected to god and not equal in rank has been reiterated through bible time and time again Daniel 7:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. John 14:28.
So to me personally it is pointless to go ahead to try figure out if they are “made of the same kind of god-stuff”, both of them have spiritual bodies and Jesus is god’s perfect reflection but only god is eternal while Jesus started to exist at some point in time by god’s direct intervention Colossians 1:15 –17. Bible doesn’t differentiate between nature of different spiritual bodies only between corresponding rank and power. We certainly cannot understand the nature of spiritual body because it is quite simply outside of our space-time continuum (1 Corinthians 15:39-54).
Anything else for me personally is nothing but philosophizing and if I am to believe that bible is indeed god’s word that is then even dangerous as twisting his word puts me in the same rank as one described in Mathew chapter 4 or Revelation 22:19.

Of course, I don’t want to offend anyone as we all have right to our own beliefs even if they are only reflection of our own thinking and not that of reality. We all make free choice about what we will believe and will be according to bible rewarded accordingly.
Having said all of that I want to say that my personal beliefs do not have baring on my appreciation of you, I know no one raised that question but I just wanted to say it out loud.

25

Should the Governing Body Have Yearly Mental Fitness Check Up By A Qualifie

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

.

should the governing body have yearly mental fitness check up by a qualified pychologist to make sure they are not mentally ill since they have such an important work as stated in the 4/15 p. 29 watchtower: thus the governing body can spend more time in preparing spiritual food and in otherwise caring for the spiritual needs of the worldwide brotherhood.1/15, pages 29, 31.. if they have such an important work as this,, one would think it mandatory that they have a check up at least once a year, that's not to much to ask is it?

zagor

yeah, why not. Seing a doctor is always good idea, even if it is only to flirt for half an hour

49

Idiot Witnesses

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

last night, a brother gave a talk, and referenced the sun.

in his talk he said two very interesting things:.

"the largest star in the universe, the sun provides light to the farthest reaching corners of our galaxy.

zagor

Yeah, I’ve seen it many times. Quite a large number of elders can’t even quote properly what has been handed down to them by WTBS and just add their own bullshit interpretations as they go along. Which, I might add, is error of WTBS. They have for years discouraged people from pursuing education. So now in 21th century when many normal people are pursuing lifelong learning of constant upgrading i.e. having several degrees over the course of ones life, WTBS elders are still at the level of 1930’s primary school.
I know of cases were university lecturers and professors were first drawn to the meeting by something they've read in Awake, but then first on the stage would be idiot elder giving a talk who made sure those people never came again. Quite ironic.

92

Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???

by zagor in

i've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .

please read again genesis 1:26

this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .

zagor

I think we are just chasing each others tail.

Anyho of course Jesus was very similar to his father he is his image Greek Eikon - It is used 23 times in 20 verses in the New Testament (Mt. 22:20; Mk. 12:16; Lk. 20:24; Rom. 1:23; 8:29; 1 Cor. 11:7; 15:49; 2 Cor. 3:18; 4:4; Col. 1:15; 3:10; Heb. 10:1; Rev. 13:14, 15; 14:9, 11; 15:2; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4). This Greek word means "a likeness, i.e. (literally) a statue, profile, or (figuratively) a representation, resemblance."

Use of word firstborn - Protoktisis - draws it’s origin from Hebrew tradition (firstborn were always devoted to Yahweh) but the key of the whole context is in the beginning “He is the image of the invisible God” While we cannot see invisible god Jesus was there to manifest his quality as his image – Eikon - In any case there are so many scriptures that clearly separate the two John 15:1, 10, 21. Acts 7:55, 56.

So for me it is really pointless to go into circular argument here.

As for the holy spirit.
I don’t want to offend anyone but have you people heard of the term personification? It is technique often used in literature particularly in poetry. Personification literarily means “giving human qualities, feelings, action, or characteristics to inanimate (non-living) things” So I do not see any problem in seeing holy spirit as a force even though at times it was spoken of as having certain human-like characteristic. The key is in the context which more often than not clearly shows that it is in fact the power given by god and as such something humans cannot comprehend.
http://www.imschools.org/cms/Units/Poetry/personif.htm
http://volweb.utk.edu/Schools/bedford/harrisms/lesson7.htm
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/lit_terms/personification.html

39

The Watchtower Makes Up New Rules As They Go Along

by minimus in

jw
friends

one thing you can say about the leaders of the watchtower----they simply do as they please.

whenever they want to make up a new rule to impose upon the helpless "sheep", they simply tell you this is how it is from now on.

for example you could've been a witness and at the same time been a smoker, but in the early 70's, "new light" said that those who smoked actually were involved with the demons!

zagor

So what was the question again??

Yeah, what's new here?

92

Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???

by zagor in

i've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .

please read again genesis 1:26

this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .

zagor

So what about these scriptures:

Isaiah 40:3, Micah 5:2, Zechariah 9:9, Psalm 41:9, Isaiah 53:5, Zechariah 11:13, Proverbs 8:22-31. Do they talk about Jesus? Sure they do. In fact, some of them are speaking about events as if they have already happened even though they were many centuries in the future at the time of their writing. That is what we call prophesy. I see same thing happening with prophesies of Enoch.

Of course he (Jesus) was like the god, he was the image of god, a mirror image of god just as Colossians 1:15 –17 says so. Every morning you see yourself in a mirror; it is exact replica of you. Still it isn’t really another part of you on the other side of the mirror, is it? He was replica of god just as sometimes we have exact replica of chromosomes and get a son who completely resembles his father in look and character, still two of them are quite literally separate persons.

Hence, appropriately god said “let us create man in our image” – after all Jesus was exact image of god so they are talking about creating a third being that will be in their image or resemblance. (to avoid any confusion just want to reiterate I don’t mean physical resemblance even though Hebrew words allow for that too)

18

What is wrong with Henman?

by zagor in

i mean really, where are you brits?

hes always losing to some upstarts.

whats going on here?

zagor

alt

22

Now that you are out, do you have a WANDERING EYE?

by zagor in

after many years of repression do you now find hard to restrain you natural feelings?

it doesnt have to be wrong as one cousin told me, you admire beauty of the sunset, the song of birds; you appreciate exotic meal and equally you can now more appreciate the natural beauty of opposite sex.

reason why im asking is because today ive met a dub from my former congdubgration who immediately assumed i was "immoral".

zagor

alt

18

What is wrong with Henman?

by zagor in

i mean really, where are you brits?

hes always losing to some upstarts.

whats going on here?

zagor

I mean really, where are you Brits?

He’s always losing to some upstarts. What’s going on here? Tijkmo, any thoughts?