I don't want to jump the gun on you, Runningman, since you say that you will do the flood in a later chapter, but since the ark and all the animals were already spoken of...I wonder what the numbers actually work out to? Its something I never actually bothered with before, but there are THOUSANDS of animal species, even leaving out the aquatics that wouldn't need saving from a flood. I'm willing to bet that the dimensions of the ark as described in the bible wouldn't hold 1/10th of the numbers of animals required to actually keep two (or 7 as the case may be) of everything. Not to mention the tonnage of food needed to preserve them all for an extended time while waiting for the waters to recede...
AllAlongTheWatchtower
JoinedPosts by AllAlongTheWatchtower
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23
The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 2 - Raising Cain
by RunningMan inat the time of this story, the bible tells us that adam and eve had two children, cain and abel.
now, dont forget that there are only four people on the planet.
so, apparently, cains only punishment was the requirement to move to another region.
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Pastor Russell and the Colored Friends
by Kenneson inkeeping in mind that charles taze russell began publishing the watch tower in 1879, it is interesting to note that as early as may, 1882 (zion's watch tower), copies had made their way down to caledonia, mississippi where an unnamed colored congregational minister had also recently read "food" and "tabernacle.
" he wrote to russell begging for a copy of the emphatic diaglott since he couldn't afford it.
in the june issue russell replies: "the colored minister who desired a diaglott has been supplied.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
I read your post with great interest, as I am a white male married to a black female who has been involved with the JWs for about half a year now. I became a member of this site while seeking information on JWs; what to expect, what they believed, and hopefully how to combat their influence. I have also seen information on the net that shows WT connection to Hitler and pre-WWII Germany. If there is anything that would break my wife free of the grasp of the WT, more information on these two subjects would do it. Though I fear that she is already far enough along in their programming to simply discount it as the actions of former leaders who have since been discredited. (I learned from the web that the doctrines of two former leaders of the JWs, one the founder himself, are no longer believed.) I asked my wife one day if she was aware that the JWs had predicted the end times/Armageddon more than once already. (1925 and 1975 that I know of, maybe more?) Her response seemed schooled, she said 'yes, but that doesn't matter because they don't follow the people who said that anymore'.
Is there more info on racism and WT involvement with the Nazi party? I have been wading through the net with Google to find such, but its a slow process, sometimes a site that seems promising from the Google hit will turn up little actual info or be so bitter in nature that I decide against using it...I want to be able to present my wife with cold facts when I am ready, not a lot of invective that may just make her turn a deaf ear.
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my first post, wooohooo
by cyborg ini've signed up some time ago but never really had courage to post.
so here i am, free and open-minded
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
I'm still a newbie too, but from what I've seen so far I think you'll find that everybody is super friendly and supportive. They've all been there before, so they know what you're going through.
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Oh God Why? Tell Me Why??
by LouBelle innow that i'm totally free of the wt & it's indoctrination, standing alone not sure of my purpose in life, not sure where to turn to.
i still believe in god but find myself on the verge/or perhaps already questioning him.
this is quite a sensitve topic & not sure it suitable, but i just need it out there.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
There is a similar post under 'friends' > 'Questions for agnostics and/or atheists' that you might want to read. Most of the arguments for and against the existance of god have already been discussed there. I remember as a kid I used to ask the same kind of questions; ie, why doesn't god do anything about _____? I usually got answers like "in order for there to be good, there must also be evil, just like in order to have light, there must be dark, beauty and ugliness" etc. Or what I call the copout answer: "We are mere mortals and cannot comprehend god's way of doing things" or something to that effect. One of the reasons I despise the overused cliche of "god works in mysterious ways", which is used to show how great god is whenever serendipity and happenstance make something good happen to someone. Nobody ever says that when a series of unfortunate coincidences makes someone's life fall apart though. Unless of course its 10 years later, and the person 'found jesus' because of it.
As for god being a loving benevolent deity though...ask yourself, who did all the most horrible things to man as described by the bible? Was it satan? No, it was god. God threw Adam and Eve out of Eden for the "sin" of gaining KNOWLEDGE. (Think about that in the context of leaving JW) It was god that razed Sodom and Gomorrah because he didn't like their sexual practices. It was god that flooded the entire world because he didn't like how his little science experiment was going. It was god that caused the confusion of languages at the tower of Babel because "now no thing will be withheld from them, that they put forth their hand to do". It was god that told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, then stopped him ONLY AFTER HE HAD SHOWN HE WAS WILLING TO DO IT. It was god who directed the angel of death to kill all the first-born of Egypt. It was god who caused/allowed/used his son jesus christ to "die for our sins" (If he is all-powerful and omnipotent, why couldn't he use a different method of "saving" mankind?)
Everywhere you look, you will see one instance after another of god causing chaos and mayhem, death and destruction. Is this the benevolent loving god that mankind is supposed to worship? I liken god to an angrly little boy with a magnifying glass and an antfarm, zapping here and frying there, as suits his whim or whenever the ants don't crawl through the right tunnels. God is like the greatest boogeyman of all time, and stories of him are used to beat bad little believers back into line.
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Where's the payoff?
by AllAlongTheWatchtower inexcuse me if i'm being cynical, but i've had my own experiences with [b]organized religion, though it was non-jw.
the group i was affiliated with demanded that full fledged members tithe (10% off the top of your income; pre-taxes), and a donation basket was also circulated at nearly every gathering in addition to tithing.
even kids were encouraged to participate; they would give them little envelopes to put loose change into and put in the basket.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
Everyone keeps saying the labor is free, that's how they make money. I didn't get this, because I assumed the literature stuff was free. Now I found an item on the net that says members have to pay for the literature, then they in turn sell it? Is that how it works? That would certainly explain the economics for me, if so. I was going on the assumption that the mags couldn't be turning a profit without ads in them.
"Members buy Witness literature from their local Kingdom Hall building at a small discount and then sellit door to door. In1984, British Witnesses made 3.3 million [pounds] from street selling." - http://www.skepticfiles.org/cults/j_cults.htm
Nobody answered the other part of my question, is the organization legally counted as a non profit group? (Within the US at least, where I know that churches are usually tax exempt, I don't know what status churches may have in other places.) Or are they actually legally a business? Awfully hypocritical of them if they are really a business, with all that talk about 'worldly' etc.
Also I saw at least one post somewhere on here (lost track of what category it was under now though) and on other sites about JWs and Mormons teaming up to sell something called noni juice?
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31
Where's the payoff?
by AllAlongTheWatchtower inexcuse me if i'm being cynical, but i've had my own experiences with [b]organized religion, though it was non-jw.
the group i was affiliated with demanded that full fledged members tithe (10% off the top of your income; pre-taxes), and a donation basket was also circulated at nearly every gathering in addition to tithing.
even kids were encouraged to participate; they would give them little envelopes to put loose change into and put in the basket.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
Excuse me if I'm being cynical, but I've had my own experiences with [B]organized religion, though it was non-JW. The group I was affiliated with demanded that full fledged members tithe (10% off the top of your income; pre-taxes), and a donation basket was also circulated at nearly every gathering in addition to tithing. Even kids were encouraged to participate; they would give them little envelopes to put loose change into and put in the basket. In fact, the group my parents dragged me to for years demanded not just one tithe, but three. Its been years, but I think the break down went: 1st tithe-directly to the headquarters, 2nd tithe stayed local and went to pay for the ministers, deacons, and elders salaries plus the rental of the building used for meetings, and 3rd tithe was to be kept aside in your bank account and used for gas, lodging, etc when you went to annual conventions and such.
I joined this site because my wife has gotten involved with JWs, and I'm not happy about it. The more I read here, the less happy I am. So far I haven't really made a stand or confronted her about it, except to say that I'd be damned unhappy if she started tithing to them. Her response was a blank look. Apparently she never even heard of tithing, either the JWs don't do that, or they haven't gotten around to mentioning it to her. (At this point in time, not an issue since she is not employed, I just wanted to get it clear from the outset. And they CERTAINLY won't get anything from me.)
So I'm wondering, what's the payoff for the WTS/JW organization? I'm far too cynical to believe nothing at all. And I've seen some vague references around the site here to 'publishers' being exploited to spread brochures, etc, and saying that the society uses them...but I really don't see the economic tie-in. I've also seen posts that say the WTS is actually a book company, not truly a religion...so, are they legally a non-profit, or what? The pamphlets, magazines, etc, can't be doing anything for them, as there are no ads in them.
Every religion I have any experience with has some method(s) of 'fleecing the flock' I just don't see what this one's is. Somebody fill me in, please?
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how to live with JW
by freefly inhey,.
my partner in life (26yrs) has been converted to jw by his mother.. i am not one to whine -as very aware many have more troubles in their life.. i suppose one of my fears has been this exactly- as i know he was raised jw and should have saw the "signs.
" he always regularly visited with his mom, which i respected as felt a good sign he had a mother/son relationship.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
I'm a newbie to this whole JW-in-my-marriage scene, so I will leave that to the more knowledgable. Outside of the JW part of it though, I saw a red flag as soon as you said 'partner of 26 years" No offense to you if it indeed is your personal preference to remain unmarried for some personal or philosophical reasons, but I have a hard time believing that someone (your mate) raised in a conservative organization like the JWs would share that preference. Someone so indoctrinated usually tends to keep the belief system and/or moral values of their upbringing, even when they are not active in the organization. (The nut doesn't fall far from the tree.) In other words, it seems to me that he would have wanted to marry you long before this...unless there's something going on that you don't know about. (A JW spouse who refused to divorce or something of that nature? Or perhaps he felt all along that if he was married to a "nonbeliever" his bridges would be burned?)
At any rate, it seems to me that him rejoining the JWs is just your newest problem, not the only problem.
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Why the term "publisher"?
by Gander indoes anyone know why the term "publisher" was chosen to describe an individual that goes from door-to-door preaching about the bible as a jehovah's witness?
was this term always used?
it certainly makes the focus of the work to be aimed towards literature distribution over anything else.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
Interesting, I have been wondering that myself. I joined this site because my wife has gotten involved with JW's since some time late 2004. Anyone care to explain the term 'overseer' as well? My wife mentioned someone called an overseer, from what she said I get the impression its like a travelling minister or something, with VIP status. I really have no idea though, that's just my educated guess.
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Question for agnostics and/or atheists
by sonnyboy ini've just recently declared my agnosticism to myself and to one other person in my life.
i don't necessarily consider myself an atheist because i believe there very well may be some higher power or non carbon based entities in existence with 'godlike' abilities.
my question is, do you still find yourself secretly believing in god?
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
This is a question that I can empathize with; I went through the process myself. From cult organization (not JWs but similar), to agnostic, and eventually to atheist/ existentialist. I was kicked out of the organization that I was in at the age of 13, and from that time until I was about 16 I went through a transition period. At the start, I just knew I was going to hell, having been rejected by the 'one true church'. (Funny, they all seem to say that.) It didn't even occur to me at first to seek other religions, since I "knew" they were all wrong anyway. Eventually though, I started seeking out some other church to attend because I did feel that guilt feeling you mentioned. I had been taught, and believed, in the 'seventh day' doctrine though, so I was rather limited in my choices. Either through personal experience, or book research, I went through all of the religions that had Saturday worship as a tenet of their doctrine, and eliminated them all eventually as viable choices, and began my agnostic phase. I still believed in god, just thought that all the religions had corrupted doctrines.
The more I thought about it though, and the more I read and searched, the more I came to realize that I simply couldn't reconcile what I knew to be true and ANY kind of belief in a deity. Things like the impossibility of Adam and Eve being the ancestor of every single human being; due to the science of genetics. (Ever ask yourself just where Cain's wife came from? Ever thought about the hypocrisy of Christians, who believing that incest is wrong, never stop to think about the fact that if the story of Adam and Eve is true, the first humans who were their sons and daughters, would have been forced to procreate amongst themselves?) Things like every minister, or preacher, or whatever their title was, dismissing out of hand any questions I asked them about dinosaur fossils as 'evolutionist heresy' or simply admitting they had no answer for me. I have BEEN to the Smithsonian, I have SEEN dinosaur bones...the fact that the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs doesn't make them go away. Ditto for archaeological finds of Cro Magnon, Neanderthal, etc.
Anyway, due to issues such as that, I finally moved on to becoming atheist by the time I was 16. One of my pet peeves as an atheist is when the subject comes up in polite conversation somehow, and people would look at me and gasp 'Oh my god you're a devil worshipper?! But you seem so nice!" Makes my blood boil...depends on my mood whether I bother to explain to them that not believing in god makes a belief in satan an impossibility, due to satan, the former lucifer, being a creation OF the very god I do not believe in. Though I must admit that for fun and spite I've been known to make goat-signs with my hand and chant beelzebub...beelzebub at folks who have been particularly annoying about the subject, lmao.
And finally, I found out about existentialism, which had the answer for me. For any who don't know, existentialists believe that you yourself must hold yourself to be personally accountable for whatever you believe to be your "sins" or what have you. Some deride this approach, saying that you can just say that anything you do is ok, and therefore you absolve yourself of any wrongdoing. Perhaps there's adherants of this philosophy who do go easy on themselves, but speaking for myself and all of the people I have talked to, we take it pretty seriously. It's sorta like having your own code of knightly conduct or whatever-and sticking to it, and berating yourself when you fail, as opposed to going to confession and getting a pennance or having some JW committee chastise you. I've had Christians I've discussed this with be shocked and apalled by my views, saying that is heresy, and that I'm playing god to myself. I suppose in a way that is technically correct, but I certainly don't have aspirations to godhood or a "god complex" or anything like that. One such person who said this was somebody I knew while I was in the military, and my answer to him was "Who is the better person: one who believes that prostitution's wrong on personal reasons and therefore does not use their services, or one who believes prostitution is wrong for religious reasons, but uses their services anyway because his church says all he has to do to be clean again is come confess?" Heh...that shut him up, since we were stationed overseas in Japan, and I happened to know he was married, and away from his wife, and that he had indeed done just that.
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relationship with jw's
by clay ini stumbled upon this site while looking for help.
my prob is there's this girl i really really like alot.
she's beautiful,smart, has a great personality and i love being around her.
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AllAlongTheWatchtower
Hi...new here, not sure if this was the most appropriate thread to jump headfirst into or not, but here I am, causeI feel like I have to start somewhere. First off, a little about myself. I grew up with an organization very similar to JW's, called the Worldwide Church of God. (Info about this group can be found on rickross.com, a very good informative site on cults and near-cults) I bought into most of their crap, but always had questions that they were not able to answer, things like if creationism is true then why can't the ministers explain dinosaur fossils; of that nature. To make a long story short, I was excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or whatever one wishes to call it when I was 13...I was an "evil influence" on the other youth. I am all too familiar with the familial problems that come of choosing religion over blood (no pun on transfusion). My family is still divided to this day, and I am now 33. The terms "worldly" and a few others bring back memories, and not fond ones. I was raised to believe that all other religions are wrong, and it was difficult for me at 13, thinking I was going to hell...I managed to overcome this bias and seek out some teachings of other religions, but none of them appealed to me, or else reminded me so much of the one I had been forced out of that I was repulsed. By the time I was 16, I was what I call a 'devout atheist'. Meaning wild horses would be needed to compell me to go near ANY church, for ANY reason. So much so that even when I got married, it was by a justice of the peace at a park a few blocks from the courthouse.
Which brings me to why I'm here. My wife knew all of this, of course-she could hardly not know, seeing as we didn't have what most would think a 'normal wedding'. Up until recently, she was more or less a non-practicing Christian. Meaning she believed in god, etc, but didn't really go to church except maybe a couple times a year on holidays, with family, etc. Now though, everything is changing. JW's began coming to our door, and at first we joked about it together, she saying she wished they'd just go away, me saying she had to be more firm and just tell them to get lost. She would describe turning off the tv and sitting very still while they knocked over and over on the door. My wife is a very kind hearted person though, and perhaps lacking in ummm whats the word... not aggressiveness....assertiveness, yes, that's it. Eventually she began letting them in, talking to them, etc. Now she is going to meetings on Mon and Wed nights, as well as services on Sun.
I wasn't quite sure how to take all this, at first I suppose for lack of a better response, I was somewhat amused. Almost in the way a scared person will let loose a bit of nervous laughter, I found it sort of funny. Her family (my inlaws) took a much dimmer view of it. A view I am beginning to share, the more I find out about JW's. I only just found this place today while Googling for some sites, and found out about the blood transfusion thing from here. I was not aware of that...hell, I'm not even sure my wife is aware of THAT part. At least we are both A+, if worse ever comes to worst I will look up how to do it and give her blood myself if she gets that far into it.
This has been going on for...oh, 7-8 months I guess, I remember for sure her telling her mother about it when we drove up there for the christmas holiday, so it started sometime in Nov or Dec I guess. Even in that short amount of time though, I see changes...changes in attitude, changes in priority...and they worry me. I read a lot, and I once read something by Kurt Vonnegut where the main character says his only salvation was his wife, they were like a nation of only 2. I used to think of us in this way...used to. We went through so much sh_t when we were only dating as an interracial couple, I thought sure that now that we were married NOTHING could ever come between us. But already she has begun getting annoyed with me if I say something contrary to, or negative in regard to, the JW organization. She was telling me about one of the meetings one day, and mentioned someone referred to as 'the overseer'. I made a joke about his title, and she was upset about it...it lead to something that was somewhere short of an arguement, but not a happy situation, either. Ummm...*blush*...on a more personal level, now she tells me that oral sex is no longer allowed between us, because the JW's say so. That scares me. I don't like the idea of them telling her what is right and wrong between us...that should be, well, between US. It makes me wonder what they might tell her next...especially after reading some of the posts on this board...will the next thing be that she must leave me, a 'nonbeliever'?
Worst of all I think...is that we used to tell each other everything...there was nothing I would hide from my wife, I would tell her the dirty jokes the other guys at work told that day, or anything...no secrets. Yet here I am, with one ear cocked to make sure she is still downstairs in the kitchen, because I don't want her to catch me writing this. I haven't made up my mind what to do yet...but I somehow instinctively know that now is too soon...I must be fully prepared when I get ready to sit down and confront/discuss this with her...I'm not even sure what I am doing here, other than ranting to let off steam...perhaps seeking advice? I dunno...I've mostly seen advice to others on here given as "RUNNNNNNNN!!", and I definitely am not ready to give up. Meh...well, anyway, thanks for reading and letting me rant.