Posts by Hellrider

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

Hellrider

Thirdwitness:

You can twist statistics all you want to try to support you view. The fact is that Jesus said that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. There are. And the earthquakes since 1914 have killed more people on average per year than before 1914, a lot more.
Jesus was right. JWs are right.

You are the one that has been twisting statistcs. I and the others have tried to show the proper way to read them. Alan F showed you in his previous post how there were almost exactly the same numbers of death in the 18th and 19th century, as in the 20th century. As we are all learning to know you, I will assume that you are just going to ignore that, like you do with all arguments and even statistics that doesn`t suit your beliefs. But more importantly:

Again you are trying to make this a case between jws and jesus vs. "the apostates" and the rest of the world. Let me tell you something: You don`t have a monopoly on Jesus! Jesus isn`t the one that said that he would return invisibly in 1914 to inspect the churches bla bla bla, and then choose the WTS cause they had the dorrect interpretations of the Bible (interpretations, that by the way were extremely different from the interpretations they have today!!! - so how the fu#k could he "choose them" I wonder!!). Jesus never said this! Could you show me where in the Bible he says this? I have read it, and I can tell you that he never said any such things. When we "apostates" say that there are no more earthquakes, or statistically more deaths due to earthquakes than what is normal and has been normal and stabile for centuries, then we are not saying that Jesus lied or was wrong, or anything like that. Any (sane) christian person would take the statistics seriously, and then say "hm...looks like the end times aren`t happening right now, that`s for sure...then all of that lies in the future, along with the end of the world, the second coming (yes, second, not third!), and the thousand-year reign...". It`s not a matter of jesus and the jws vs the apostates. It`s a matter of looking at the world, investigating it, and draw the correct conclusions. Just because you want this to be the end times, doesn`t mean that they are. When looking at earthquake-statistics, clearly, the end times are in the future. Now, if we start having 200 000 deaths-quakes once or twice a year, instead of once every 30 years (which is normal, look at the stats for the 19th and 18th century), then we start talking about end times. Not before. And by the way, when reading the Gospels, I can`t see any comparison at all between Jesus and the Jehovahs Witnesses. Jesus sat down to eat and drink with whores and other outcasts. The pharisees and "righteous jews" were outraged, much in the same manner as when I started doing that. Jesus praised the samaritan for helping him when he was down and out. I have never seen any jw help someone when they were down and out. In fact, in field service with my mom and another "sister" once, we walked by some drunk/high woman passed out on the street. Mom and the "sister" just frowned and walked on. And I don`t think any jw I ever knew would have done anything other than just that. That`s right, Thirdwitness. Just walk on.

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

Hellrider

The point is, Thirdwitness, that you and I both stand a much lesser chanse (statistically, in relation to the world population) of dying in an earthquake today, than if we had been alive at any time before 1914! Let me give you an example: In the 800s, the world population was about 200 million people (or less). When the earthquakes hit Iran twice and India once, they killed in a total 530 000 people. That means that in that century alone, 530 000 (out of a stabile worldwide population of 200 000 000) died from earthquakes. That means that in the 800s, 2/1000 (2 promille) died from earthquakes. In comparison, since 1914, 1,474 361 people have died in earthquakes (including the earthquake-related tsunami in Sumatra 2004). In 1900, there were around 3 billion people on the planet. Today, there are 6.5 billion people. Let`s then use the number 4 billions as an average for the 20th century. That means that of 4000 000 000 there has been 1474361 casualties due to earthquakes. Do you mind doing the math for me?

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

Hellrider

Thirdwitness:

Monkeyshine and Underbeliever pretty much covered it, but just let me add:

You say that the figures are exxagerated: What is your source for that? The earthquake in Egypt is verified by science. That the estimated death toll is to high, is only your claim. You have offered no evidence, sources or arguments to support your claim. The quake in Calcutta 1737 is listed by the 2002 Encyclopedica Britannica, so I would think that is substantiated too...

As for the rest of your aguments: They have all been covered. If we use your numbers (or we can even use lower numbers than that), then the fact that there were an estimated 4000 deaths by earthquake a year before 1914, and an estimated 16000 deaths by earthquake each year before 1914, pretty shocking. Shocking in the sense that before 1914, the highest number of people living on the planet (just before 1914), was around 3 billion. In 1800, the number was 1 billion. So, if we count back from the 1800s, although there were only 1/6 of the population of 2006, living on the planet, the number of deaths due to earthquake pr year was 1/4 of what it is today. That means that in relation to the population of the world, at all times in history up to 1914, more people (percentagewise, in relation to the population at any give time) died from earthquakes than after 1914. I find that to be pretty shocking. I guess the reason why fewer people (percentagewise, in relation to the overall population at any given time) dies from earthquakes from 1914 and up until today, must be that we are better at constructing stronger buildings that doesn`t collapse that easily, we are better at getting medical help, food and water in, after the earthquakes happen, etc. Thank God we have made this progress.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hellrider

Thirdwitness:

About your Earthquake-myth, such as this:

AlanF, I have used your figures on earthquakes and the highest ones at that for ;before 1914. ; I have even doubled your figures on wars ;before 1914 Here is the result.
Earthquake deaths:pre1914--3400 per year.
post1914--17,000 per year.

...I started another thread, in which this myth is debunked. In my last post on the thread are the top 28 known, most deadly earthquakes in history. Your old jw-earthquake-myth is taken care of in this thread, and I`m posting a link here, in case you missed it:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/119493/1.ashx

44

Questions for those born or raised in the truth

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

raised in the organization

"for those not born into the organization .

not having been born into the organization i believe.

Hellrider

I almost forgot: Field service. Field service with my parents (mostly mom), that sucked the worst. Terrified of meeting kids from school, all dressed up like a dork. And when leaving to go to the meetings, all dressed up, the kids in my street would make fun, saying stuff like "oh, you`re going to see the king" (we have a royal family in my country), etc. That sucked. Now, as an adult, I hate suits. I own one suit, I had to buy it when my mother died. It is sewed in a different style than traditional suit, kind of like a chinese communist-uniform (you know, like Mao always wore), but all black. Very nice suit. I wouldn`t be caught dead in a traditional suit like the ones the "brothers" all wore.

44

Questions for those born or raised in the truth

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

raised in the organization

"for those not born into the organization .

not having been born into the organization i believe.

Hellrider

1) What was it like not participating in sports, holidays and school activities in general?

- It sucked. It wasn`t actually not celebrating christmas and birthdays that sucked, it was being different from the others. Around christmas-time, and the other kids were making decorations for the the christmas trees, etc, maybe sing and walk around the tree, and while all that was happening, I sat in the corner of the classroom and pretended to do homework. I just sat there, sooo embarassad about being different, I wanted the ground to just swallow me whole. Same thing with birthdays: I don`t know what sucked more, having to come up with excuses and with a red face try to explain why I couldn`t come (without going into details about my stupid religion), or when they stopped asking, because they had finally realised I was weird. It wasn`t really not being able to participate that sucked, it was the feeling of always being different, excluded. I was "special", and I never wanted to be.

2) Having been taught that the religion was the truth since birth, what was your reaction on finding out that it was not the "truth"

- Part of me always knew. No great revelation. It`s hard to explain, on the one hand (with the heart and emotions), I kind of believed, on the other hand (with the brain), I never really believed. I looked around at my classmates in the classroom, thinking "can Jehovah really kill all these kids, just because their parents aren`t Jehovahs Witnesses?". In my mind, I knew that it couldn`t be the case, the religion had to be wrong. On the other hand, emotionally, I was trained and indoctrinated to believe (with the non-sensical part of my brain), and dreaded the day when Jehovah was gonna kill all my classmates. Breaking out was all a matter of thinking clearly, getting the analytical, rational part of the brain to try to take some control over the emotional part. But of course, the emotional part is always going to be part of all those who were raised jws. A neverending feeling/aura of doom, and expectations of an approaching horror. That`s the mindset we were trained into having, and it`s always going to be a part of me, that`s for sure.

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

Hellrider

Hi jwfacts! Yes, I don`t doubt that, so if we include your list into the other, we get:

1201, upper Egypt: 1.100 000 deaths

1556, China, Shensi: 830 000 deaths

1737, India, Calcutta: 300 000 deaths

1976, China, Tangshan: 255 000 deaths

526, Syria, Antioch: 250 000 deaths

1976, China, Tangshan: 240 000 deaths

1138, Syria: 230 000 deaths

2004, dec.26th, of Sumatra, 225 000 deaths

856, Iran, Damghan: 200 000 deaths

1920, China 200 000 deaths

1703, Japan, Jeddo, 200 000 deaths

893, India, Daipur, 180 000 deaths

893, Iran, Ardabil, 150 000 deaths

1923, Japan, 143 000 deaths

1948, Turkmenistan, 110 000 deaths

1908, Italy, Messina, 70 000 - 100 000 deaths

1290, China, 100 000 deaths

2005, Pakistan, 80 361 deaths

1667, Shemakha, Caucasus, 80 000 deaths

1727, Iran, Tabriz, 77 000 deaths

1932, China, 70 000 deaths

1775, Portugal, Lisbon, 70 000 deaths

1970, Peru, 66 000 deaths

1693, Italy, Sicily, 60 000 deaths

1268, Silicia, Asia minor, 60 000 deaths

1935, Pakistan, 35 000 - 60 000 deaths

1990, Iran, 50 000 deaths

1783, Italy, Calabria, 50 000 deaths

In addition to this, the volcanic eruption and explosion/destruction of Krakatao in 1883 should be listed. Volcanic eruptions are also the result of seismological activity, and Krakatao resulted in 30 000 dead the following few days, but the thousands of tons of ashes and dust thrown into the atmosphere, crating a black cloud blocking out the sun on several continents in the following years, caused crops to fail, resulting in famine, killing many times the number that died instantly. So, let`s sum it up:

Of the worlds 29 most deadliest earthquake-disasters (including the Krakatao-eruption), 18 happened before 1914. )In addition to this, we have to take into consideration that there were probably several major-scale earthquakes in the 20 000 + deaths- category, that happened in remote locations, and that they were lost to history. The three deadliest ones, happened before 1914. Both the 800s and 1200s were just as bad as the 1900s, with similar death tolls, even despite the fact that the population of the world was just a fraction of what it was in the 1900s! In the 1200s, there were around 300 million people on the planet, in the 800s, the number was around 200 million (or less). In the 1900s, the number has been increasing from around 3 billion, to 6.5 billion today! And still, the earthquakes of the 800s and 1200s killed as many people as the earthquakes of the 1900s! How about that, Thridwitnoid! Pretty shocking, isn`t it! I pity the people of the 1200s, first those horrible earthquakes, and then then black plague, a century later, killing of between one half and a third of Europes population, and also wiping out millions of people in the middle east, the caucasus, Russia and India. That sure were the END TIMES, right then and there, I sure am glad I wasn`t alive back then...

Thirdwitness still hasn`t showed up to defend his case. I believe that is a wise decision of him to make, because has no case. The earthquake-myth has now been layed to rest forever, if anyone were in doubt.

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

Hellrider

I was so inspired by the ridicolousness of Thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("The gentile times reconsidered again...but this time I am using the Bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the WT and Asleep. It really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again...), so I thought I`d start a thread about it here. Anyway, here is what I found when googling "worlds deadliest earthquakes", this is a list that might look favorable to JWs:

Date	Location	Deaths	Magnitude
Jan. 23, 1556	Shansi, China	830,000	~8
July 27, 1976	Tangshan, China	255,000 1	7.5
Aug. 9, 1138	Aleppo, Syria	230,000	n.a.
Dec. 26, 2004	off west coast of northern Sumatra	225,000+	9.0
Dec. 22, 856 2	Damghan, Iran	200,000	n.a.
May 22, 1927	near Xining, Tsinghai, China	200,000	7.9
Dec. 16, 1920	Gansu, China	200,000	7.8
March 23, 893 2	Ardabil, Iran	150,000	n.a.
Sept. 1, 1923	Kwanto, Japan	143,000	7.9
Oct. 5, 1948	Ashgabat, Turkmenistan, USSR	110,000	7.3
Dec. 28, 1908	Messina, Italy	70,000– 100,000 3	7.2
Sept. 1290	Chihli, China	100,000	n.a.
Oct. 8, 2005	Pakistan	80,361	7.6
Nov. 1667	Shemakha, Caucasia	80,000	n.a.
Nov. 18, 1727	Tabriz, Iran	77,000	n.a.
Dec. 25, 1932	Gansu, China	70,000	7.6
Nov. 1, 1755	Lisbon, Portugal	70,000	8.7
May 31, 1970	Peru	66,000	7.9
May 30, 1935	Quetta, Pakistan	30,000– 60,000	7.5
Jan. 11, 1693	Sicily, Italy	60,000	n.a.
1268 4	Silicia, Asia Minor	60,000	n.a.
June 20, 1990	Iran	50,000	7.7
Feb. 4, 1783	Calabria, Italy	50,000	n.a.

...from this site: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884804.html (perfectly neutral and unapostate)

Now, I have a problem: From JW-files webpage, I found this list:

1201 IX 1,100,000 Upper Egypt or Syria	1100000
1556 IX 830,000 Shensi province, China	830000
1737 . . . 300,000 Calcutta, India	300000
526 . . . 250,000 Antioch, Syria	250000
1976 7.8 240,000 T'ang-shan, China	240000
1138 XI 230,000 Ganzah, Aleppo, Syria	230000
1920 8.5 200,000 Kansu province, China	200000
1703 . . . 200,000 Jeddo, Japan	200000
856 . . . 200,000 Qumis, Damghan, Iran	200000
893 . . . 180,000 Daipur, India	180000

(//jwfacts.com/index_files/earthquakes.htm) ("apostate", in the eyes of jws)

...and this last list differs a bit from the first. It mentions the Shansi (China) - earthquake in 1556, but it differs a bit from the first list. Anyone here know anything more about this? Anyway, if we use the FIRST list as the basis for discussion, that would be fair to any jw-apologist that would want to participate in the discussion:

...of the 23 deadliest earthquakes, 11 has happened after 1914. The deadliest earthquake was in China in 1556. On the surface, and to the untrained eye an brainwashed mind (as in "jw", I mean), this might look shocking, and like something that would support their theories. 11 of the 23 deadliest earthquakes has happened since 1914..."gaaasp, the slave is right about eeeverything!!" It`s just that it`s not as simple as it looks on the surface, and here are the reasons why:

1) First of all, there is no reason to assume that earthquakes were any less frequent before 1914 than after. There is nothing in seismological history that indicates that this is the case. Also, the seismological tools used to measure the activity in the ground, were not invented until the 18th century, and the first machines weren`t as accurate as the ones we have today. Everything we know about earthquakes over the last 2000 (or more) years, is from written material from the time of the event. Anyone that knows anything about history would understand that these records are unreliable, incomplete, missing or were never written down in the first place. Further, seismologists says, and they are all in agreement on this, that earthquakes are neither more frequent now (or in the 20th century) or any stronger now (in the 20th century) than in the preceding centuries. The number of earthquakes every year and their intensity has been fairly stabile for many centuries. (There are some good quotes about this on the jw-files-page)

2) Is 11 out of 23 such a shocking figure? If comparing one century to the preceding ...what...20 ? - yes, it might look that way. But on the other hand, as demonstrated in point 1), we have no way of knowing whether or not there were many more earthquakes, taking tens of thousands of lives (maybe more), but that these events were lost to history. It`s of course impossible to argue that this was the case, but the point is that it is highly likely that it was the case. Oh, and take a look at all the earthquakes before 1914 on this list, and look at their locations: They all happened in areas with large populations (even then) that were also fairly civilised, areas that had a central government, places in which "stuff" was written down! - and these places were also places that the western world had contact with/ trade with! If an earthquake killing 500 000 people had happened in India in the 10th century, would it be so sure that we would know about this today? I don`t think so. At that time, the area had no strong central government, was divided and under the rule of local leaders, completely rural, ,etc. If noone had written it down, and made sure the written story/text was passed on within the nations history, there is no way we would know about it today (unless archaeology had stumbled across it, and uncovered it to us).

3) There are also other reasons why the death tolls were so high in the earthquakes of the 20th century. In 2006, there are 6.5 billion people in the world. In 1802 AD, there were 1 billion. In 1420 AD, 375 million. In 950 AD, 250 million. Clearly, when an earthquake hits a large city in in the 2006, it`s going to take more lives than it would have, in 1420. That`s just common sense.

But that in itself does not mean that this is "the time of the end"...

(please add your comments and expertise folks, and let`s kill off this jw-myth once and for all)

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Hellrider

TD, I see where you got this list from. From someone trying to disprove JWs. Can these be substantiated? By the way, the writer of the essay did have to admit this:
In view of the population increase it might seem only reasonable to expect that more people have died in earthquakes during our century than during earlier centuries.

Oh, the old earthquake-and-disasters-argument is just sillllly. I don`t even hear young witnesses mention it that often anymore, it`s usually something the oldtimers are still talking about. The ridicolous claim that earthquakes are happening more often since 1914 than before, has no scientific basis at all (my woman is a geologist btw). There are so many reasons why the earthquakes-argument is just stupid, but here are the two most important ones:

1) First of all, this last century we have developed very sophisticated technology, making it possible to actually know when there is an earthquake somewhere in the world (even when there are no/few casualties). This is a new development, they didn`t have this kind of technology before the 19th century. So, there is absolutely no way we can know if earthquakes are happening more often now than before 1914, but from what is known in the fields of archaeology and geology, the WTS has no case. Ask any geologist if earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are more frequent now than earlier in history, and he/she would just laugh at you.

2) The statistics of casualties tells us nothing. Today, in 2006, there are 6.5 billion people on this planet. Of course many people are going to die, when natural disasters happen. In 1802, there was 1 billion people living on this planet. In 1420 AD, there were around 375 million. In 950 AD, there were around 250 million people on the planet. See where this is going? The more people populating the planet, the more will die when disasters happen. It has nothing to do with the intensity, the level on the Richter-scale, of the actual earthquake. There are simply more people crammed together in citys, that`s all. So, when looking at the history of earthquakes, bear this in mind. An earthquake at the intensity of an 8 on the Richter scale, hitting Tokyo (Kyoto), Japan in the year 1450, might have killed 5000 people, while an earthquake of the exact same force in 2006 in the same location, would kill a couple of hundred thousand.

But first of all, does the passages in the Bible say anything at all about the actual death tolls (rising) when earthquakes occur? No, it doesn`t. It simply seems to say that earthquakes will be more frequent. This is in itself clear evidence that we are not in the last days. Earthquakes are no more frequent now than they were 2000 years ago.

JWs usually have no clue about history. The worst disaster in the history of the world was not world war 1, not even world war 2, it was the black Plague. But to actually understand this, you would have to open up a history-book instead of an Awake, and JWs (well, the "hardcore"-kind, like Thirdwitness) are hesitant to do this). As for earthquakes and similar disasters, like volcanos, the eruption, explosion and destruction of Krakatao in august 1883, beats all the earthquakes in history, in actual deaths. 30 000 died in the first few days, but the global effect of this explosion, with the thousands of tons of dust and ashes thrown out into the atmosphere, resulting in a worldwide "black cloud"; causing crops to fail in the following years on several continents, may have killed many times that number. Of course, most JWs do not know this. It was never printed in Awake magasine.

92

A True Scholar In Our Midst, Leolaia

by Skoshi in

her posts for a very long time were overflowing with an obvious scholarship.

i have avidly read her posts and have tucked away as much as my much smaller brain could be forced to take in.

i'm sure others have openly expressed their admiration and appreciation for her, but i would like to do so here.

Hellrider

I read all her stuff too. But I haven`t read much of what she wrote before I joined here. Anyone got a list over her articles here on the forum? (so I can copy and save the texts)