chasson

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Posts by chasson

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  24

  Apology of cults

  by Narkissos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  charles(chasson)' thread about alain garay made me think, more generally, about what we often perceive (rightly or wrongly) as an apology of cults under the banner of "freedom of worship".. it seems only natural that cult members, officials and their attorneys should take such a stance; it is also understandable that communities which have similar interests, like small churches who tend to see anti-cultic policy as a potential threat to their own existence, support them to an extent.

  so we have seen, in france, the protestant federation criticising the heavy taxation of jws by the fiscal administration.. i wonder about the motivations of some other voices joining in the chorus.

  i suspect they may do so for very different, even antagonistic reasons.. one noteworthy example is the us department of state, whose yearly report on freedom of worship regularly criticises the governmental attempts to control cult activity in other countries (notably, in the eu, france, germany or belgium).

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  chasson

  For me, the fact that US defend some cult as scientology or JW is not because those movement help or promote US in an economic manner.
  
  In France, the religious question are private. The state has not recognize any religion and will not recognize any. So the public activity are not concerned with religion. In school, in all administration, religion is not a concern, furthermore, the law concerning the separation between state and religion, oblige everybody to be discret concerning his religion in this area. There is an area and a time to talk and profess his religion: This is not in the work, nor in school, it is in private or when you are not at work. You could evangelize people at their home, but all the activity under the state's direction must be with no reference to any religion.
  
  I have grossly summarise the use in France, but this is the big difference between US and France.
  
  I am very surprise when a US president talk about his faith, or even show himself being in a prayer. For me, as french, and to be caricatural, this is for me a attempt to convert me, an agression. I don't care about his faith, so do he about mine, he could think what he want, he must not oblige me to see him practicing his religion. He has the right to profess his religion privately, he has the right to talk about his religion in a TV show, but not when he is talking as THE president of United-States, but when he talk as Georges Bush. So there are time and area you must be neutral in the french society, and this is exactly what islamist, scientology or JW want to suppress in France and the US are agree with them. Why ? Because, as american, the US government think that the US' model of dealing with religion is the best of the world.
  
  In France, the french's Bethel has told the young JW since 1990 to not proselytise to other student. You have the right to answer question about your faith, but if you want to give some Watchtower or Awake to one of your non-JW friend you must give it OUTSIDE the school. Evidently, you will not distribute religious litterature in th school, like all other religion. This is the law, and personnally i don't want to change it.
  
  BYe
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Thanks LDH for your kind words. If you have some question i hope to have time, and to have the answers.
  
  Narkissos:"One is left with the suspicion that "politics" really mean democracy: voting and being candidate to an election are forbidden, but almost any position within, or collaboration with, a governmental administration is practically okay"
  
  Yes, this is a question that i want to discuss somewhere, (why not here, but it is more easy in french for me).
  
  The JW think that they follow exactly the path of the first christians, and for them "first christians" (it is really a generic term for hidden a complex reality) had no part in politics.
  
  If you search history's books on the subject, you can see that at this time there was no real politic in the modern sense, in fact since Jules Cesar, there was no more democracy (even if the democracy of the republic was far away than our modern democratic's view), so the Roman Empire was autocratic even if the republic structure still exist.
  
  So why the first christians didn't want to have some official responsabilities. In fact, only because as an official of the roman Empire you must participate to sacrifice to pagan's gods. Perhaps i have not search really deeply in the matter, but if what i read is confirmed, the JW have misreprensented the reality.
  
  True, you can have a position in governmental administration because the refusal of the first christians to be official of the roman empire was based on the problem of sacrifice of pagan's gods, but concerning democracy, you can't use the first christian's example, there were no democracy at their times.
  
  So if they want, without reasoning, use the first christian's example they could not be an official of any government because this is what the first christian refused. Concerning vote and democracy, they could not use the first christian's example.
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Perhaps it is really interesting to know if Garay is a JW or not:
  
  http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1028302591879
  
  
  Concerning the advisory panel of Experts on Freedom of Religion of the ODIHR of OSCE it is states:
  
  "We also support, including through financial assistance, the work of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe and its Office of Democratic Institutions and Human Rights which, inter alia, offers technical assistance on legislation. For example, in 2001, their advisory panel of Experts on Freedom of Religion helped develop a package for Armenian schools on religious tolerance, prepared a draft law on the Status of Religious Associations in Bosnia-Hercegovina, and expanded a website to gather and identify examples of legislative best practice on Freedom of Religion."
  
  
  You have read they "prepared a draft law on the Status of Religious Associations in Bosnia-Hercegovina"...
  
  This issue raise several problem:
  
  These men, JW or not, are not elected democratically, they are nominated, we don't know how and by whom. "Bosnia" is now after the war period a democracy, this is their deputy that make law, and not some technocrat.
  
  Concerning Garay, if he is a JW, prepare a draft law is terribly politic and he must be disfellowshiped.
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  The definition of hysteria and Cesnur...
  
  Concerning OSCE and JW, here is a reunion in 1999 concerning religion's freedom in Europe, where Watchtower was present as an NGO and evidently Garay...
  
  Look at the testimonies of the cesnur concerning this reunion:
  
  http://www.cesnur.org/testi/Vienna2.htm
  
  "France Severely Criticized at Vienna OSCE Meeting
  
  Hysterical Reaction by the Secretary of the French Anti-Cult Mission
  
  OSCE, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, held its meeting on "Freedom of Religion" in Vienna, at the Hofburg, on March 22, 1999, under the presidency of Norwegian ambassador Leif Mevik. In addition to delegations from the OSCE member states (including the Holy See), more than 100 non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and religious groups were represented. Most of the one-day meeting was devoted to the second of the three questions on the agenda, religious pluralism and threats to religious liberty. Three introductory papers were delivered by experts selected by the OSCE: Dr Massimo Introvigne, Managing Director of CESNUR (his paper is available on this Web site); Canon Michael Bourdeaux, Director of The Keston Institute; and Mr. Alain Garay, an attorney from Paris, France. They were followed by more than 70 short statements on behalf of governments, NGOs and religious organizations (including the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Scientology - France had objected to the participation of the latter). Although Belgium, Russia, Uzbekistan, Greece and Belarus were also criticized, most of the international criticism focused on France, its "war" against cults, and the activities of its governmental Mission to Fight Cults (MILS).
  
  An answer on behalf on France was delivered by Mr. Denis Barthélemy, general secretary of the MILS. In an emotional statement - at times verging on the hysterical - Mr. Barthélemy stated that all those who had criticized France had in fact spoken "on behalf of either Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses" (while, he noted, the statement by the Church of Scientology itself was "surprisingly moderate"). Mr. Barthélemy's statement made no sense, France having been criticized by a number of governments in addition to independent NGOs, and failed to amuse the US and other delegations. Mr. Barthélemy further declared that France respects religious liberty, but within the limits of "public order, civil order, social order and economic order". He also said that religious liberty may be limited by "freedom of conscience" (an argument used in 19th century France in order to limit the liberty of Catholic religious orders, now dangerously resurfacing as noted before by French scholars). France will protect against "sects", Mr. Barthélemy indicated, not only children but also "protectable adults". Speaking to Italian and other media, Dr Massimo Introvigne commented that, more than any possible analysis by scholarly experts, Mr. Barthélemy's somewhat extraordinary speech was the best evidence of the intolerance currently prevailing in France, particularly within the MILS, where not only paranoid conspiracy theories seeing in any critic a "Scientologist" or a "cultist" seems to have replaced any reasonable approach to the issue but a 19th century secular humanist ideology hostile to religion in general is presented in an international forum as the official French position on religious liberty."
  
  Now you can read by yourself in english the "hysterical" reaction of the french's representant here:
  
  http://www.antisectes.net/osce-hysteria.htm
  
  "France has been attacked at least four times this morning. Two sources from those critics:
  
  - Three could be interpreted as coming from the organization said church of scientology, while the official intervention of this organism has been in itself rather moderate.
  - One came from the Jehovas Witnesses, for trivial tax motivations.
  
  I'd say that it should be necessary to decrypt clearly what the authors of those attacks said, for France to be able to answer under the conditions of an equitable suit, as laid out by article 6-1 of the European Convention of Human Rights and basic freedoms.
  
  
  
  
  
  The english word CULT, Monsieur le Président, generates regularly some problems of translation which have been much used by some people. It is the source of a continual ambiguousness, in translations, as one could imagine that struggling against cults is struggling against religions. I'd like this to be clarified during this session.
  
  This ambiguousness on cult's meaning is visible in the last paragraph of the document from INTERNATIONAL HELSINKI FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.
  
  The meaning of words.
  
  What should be said of illegal practices, if those are limited to sole major crimes represented by murder and manslaughter, as I heard to-morrow morning, by Massimo Introvigne?
  
  LA FRANCE
  
  I must remind here that France is a country where State and Churches are separated.
  
  There is no official religion in France, only more or less important ones. First being Roman Catholicism, second being Islam, then protestant and buddhism.
  
  Are also often forgotten those who, without professing a militant atheism, don't care of religion and don't declare any specific belief. If we were including, for France, all those not practicing a religion, those would be almost the main part of the population.
  
  In France, there is no obligation, by instance before a Justice Court or to take an official function, to swear or make allegiance on Bible, Gospel, Koran or any other sacred book. Regarding the JWs' tax problems evoked by M. Garay, it is necessary to be aware that the tax regimen criticized by JWs is the one of every french 1901 law on non-profit associations. The only ones to be outside of its reach are those associations having an exclusively cultic (religious, in the sense of worship, rites etc) purpose. Actually, Jehovas Witnesses assocations don't have this purpose only. [translator's note: major french religions have often some commercial activities , such as cheese or bier fabrication, or icons etc: every one of these are subjected too to trade ans tax laws, and they don't protest against those normal rules, while JWs would like not to be subjected to those laws and rules]
  
  The French representation wants to affirm that it is shocked by the declaration done against France by INTERNATIONAL HELSINKI FEDERATION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS - also readable on Internet.
  
  We can remind here that this declaration has been disapproved by the french section of this federation, which took its own informations from one source only, called "HRWF" - Droits de l'Homme sans Frontières, whose affinities and preferences are well known from specialists.
  
  In France, the Ligue des Droits de l'Homme said to us that it questioned the real motivations and purposes of those allegations.
  
  My opinion is that this affair should be settled between the associations aimed at Human Rights defense.
  
  Besides, I'm believing that it is necessary to expose the problems as they should, if one would like to progress and define a real and effective religion's freedom, that is, a right to practice one's religion while respecting the other's rights.
  
  I've been allowed, as a jurist and laws technician, to expose some ideas already partly evoked, but that should be reminded as a more general topic.
  
  I'd like to remind that there is no State of Right/State of Laws without a fundamental respect of laws, a scrupulous respect.
  
  Freedom of religion and freedom of Belief are on different levels, but of same importance. Though one of them cannot exist without the other, one could conflict with the other.
  
  - The freedom of religion is rather a collective expression and practice's freedom.
  
  - The belief's freedom is an individual freedom. It's the application of Opinion's freedom, one the very first basic freedoms.
  
  But those can conflict when the individual changes his/her viewpoints, or when someone wants to impose him/her a new opinion or belief, which has never been his/her.
  
  - Those conflicts are complex when the Childrens Rights are at stake, particularly regarding the Education's Rights as defined under article 29 of the International Convention of Childrens Rights (UN).
  
  Those conflicts are also complex when it is useful to come to the topic of adults protection and protection of the weakened persons.
  
  - The problem posed by fraudulent acts against contractual freedoms [when something cancels the validity of an agreement], or under heirs and heritages topics.
  
  The freedom of religion can also conflict to other collective freedoms: every one of those possibilities should be looked into here:
  
  - The right of individuals to security and the religion's right.
  - violations of law and order and the religion's right.
  - violations of social order (unpaid wages for staffs, benevolents) and the religion's rights.
  - violations of financial and economic order (15 pages of the 1997 record done by an independant organ inside the french offices, the Central Office on prevention and corruption, on cults and their illegal practices in those areas), and the religions' rights.
  - Finally, the religion's freedom can include the freedom to expose oneself as adept of a religion : "Im' a member of...", and religion's rights.
  
  Here we have an individual freedom with a collective relationship:
  
  The one exposing himself states his own claim to the practice of the religion he says being a member of.
  
  Those practices can have been sometimes ruled as dangerous or outlawed. They can have been technically ruled as such. They can be such for the individual, the group (cities, areas, companies), the children, the adults to be protected.
  
  Those are, Monsieur le Président, some viewpoints from a jurist to contribute to this debate, as you have asked.
  
  As an official representant for France, I'm willing to conclude, reminding that France is a country of religious freedoms. France is open to dialogue with religions, in the frame of the respect of State and Churches separation, internal laws, of its fundamental principles [its own declaration of Human and Citizen's Rights], and inside the frame of international agrreements it has signed. "
  
  Why it is important ? With this reunion and the same at CSCE, the american's government has accused France of persecuting JW and other religion. Even Jim Penton in his last book is agree with this view of France. Definetly, Garay is the best Jw's lobbyist that you ever know !!!
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Now if you want we can talk of sociologist and Cesnur.
  
  We will see that it is a small world too.
  
  We have a french's sociologist called Regis Dericquebourg, specialised in the study of the JW's movement.
  
  He is accused of being to sympathetic to cult as scientology, or JW.
  
  http://www.iresco.fr/labos/gsrl/pageperso/251005Dericquebourg.pdf
  
  Here is the Curiculum Vitae of Dericquebourg, you can find that:
  
  "Organisation de la journée d’étude des jeunes chercheurs français sur le
  Jéhovisme : Exposés de Arnaud Blanchard (Ecole normale de Cachan), Philippe
  Barbey (doctorant EPHE), Vincent Primault (doctorant EPHE) avec Alain Garay
  (juriste) et Régis Dericquebourg (psychosociologue), organisée à l’Iresco le 6
  décembre 2001, Jean-Paul Willaime, directeur du Groupe de Sociologie des
  Religions et de la Laïcité."
  
  This is the french's reunion of specialist in the study of JW in December 2001. You have seen that Garay has made a speech and Dericquebourg a pro-cultist too, but now, i would like to introduce you Philippe Barbey.
  
  A men, who has written a book regarding JW, called 'The Jehovah's witnesses, for an original christianism"... In this book, you will not find a line of criticism against JW, very surprising isn't it.
  
  Arnaud Blanchard, cited in the reunion, has made a review of his book, in polite manner, he said that the work of Barbey is nothing more than a b... of sh....
  
  http://assr.revues.org/docannexe2313.html
  
  "Le livre apporte peu
  d’éléments nouveaux sur le mouvement de la
  Tour de Garde et souffre d’insuffisances de
  style notables, telle la surabondance de citations
  non référencées. En outre, la démarche
  globale du document est ambiguë dans la
  mesure où – à défaut d’avoir construit sociologiquement
  son objet – l’auteur ne manifeste pas
  de distance critique à l’égard des croyances et
  des argumentaires énoncés par le groupe étudié.
  À de multiples reprises, il reproduit et avalise
  sans examen les propositions (théologiques en
  particulier) des Témoins de Jéhovah de telle
  manière que l’analyse est éclipsée par le travail
  de persuasion."
  
  To make simple, he said that Barbey made a work of proselytism, that Barbey has no distance with the subject, in clear, Barbey is a JW.
  
  Another time, why it is dangerous ? You can find this book in some public library as reference work. The reader will not know that Barbey is a JW, and that his colleague have found that his work is stupid.
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Randy: "I urge to you representatives of governments to give your support to ODIHR" (citation of OSCE conference)
  
  In fact, Garay is in the panel expert of the comission on religious liberty of ODIHR in OSCE. The world is too small !!!
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  I can add something that could be classified as coincidential, or perhaps not.
  
  As you can see, Garay has started to infiltrate the medical community, by starting one medical association in Costa-Rica (San-Jose), which has created later an latino-american association, which has created more later an latino-iberico-american association
  
  I am sure that you have looked to the website www.noblood.org
  
  Who has created this site ? Larry Eitel.
  
  http://noblood.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59
  
  
  Who is Larry Eitel and where he live ?
  
  In LaJolla: http://lajolla.co.cr/models/V08.htm
  
  LaJolla is in Costa-Rica at 8 kilometer of San Jose. It is surprising that all the Jw offensive concerning the blood issue are from here...
  
  You have seen Jan B. Wade in the first link as founder of Noblood.org, with no surprise he is at the foundation of SABM, this particular organisation that desserve an award to the Watchtower, award that Watchtower with this habit of great humility has advertise all over the world.
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Atlantis:Alain Garay (Paris, France) is a lawyer at the Court of Appeals of Paris and legal advisor to the European Commission and Court of Human Rights. Mr. Garay is author of several articles and commentaries focusing on the legal systems which govern religious freedom in Europe. Mr. Garay has also authored a forthcoming monograph on the role of “anti-cult” associations.
  
  This webpage is interesting, you can see how they softened the bio of Willy Fautré.
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Thanks for all Valkyrie !!!
  
  Bye
  
  Charles
• 
  56

  The best successfull Jw's lobbyist you've ever known

  by chasson in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  you want to know how jw could use the osce, the cesnur and the european court of human right successfully... .

  translate this.

  http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/alain_garay .

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  chasson

  Well to add something to your translation, you have forgotten this part of the introduction
  
  "Expert français auprès de l'Organisation pour la Sécurité et la Coopération en Europe (OSCE- panel sur la liberté de religion), il est membre des comités de rédaction de l'Annuaire Droit et religions et de Conscience et Liberté. Il est membre de l'association internationale pour la défense de la liberté religieuse . Il est l'avocat français par excellence des Témoins de Jéhovah."
  
  He is the french's expert in OSCE (liberty religious panel)...
  This point must be add, I have not seen a JW's lobbyist at this stage of responsability.
  
  Bye
  
  Charles