Posts by ICBehindtheCurtain

18

To the wonderful people on this board

by fullofdoubtnow in

jw
friends

i just want to say a big thankyou to all of you.

your good wishes and support mean so much to me.

you have given me what i need when i most needed it.. once again, thankyou so much.. all my love.

ICBehindtheCurtain

I didn't get to welcome you yet Linda, WELCOME , this board has been great for me also.

IC

31

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

Narkissos, you know what I find very interesting is that when I started reading the Bible without the WTS literature I started like you and others, feeling that I should partake not because I was of the anointed, but because I came to the understanding that it was the correct thing to do to honor Jesus Christ, I didn't get to do that however, because I saw the errors and contradictions in the Bible soon after and realized it's all bunk. As for the rumors that start when they disfellowship so called apostates, I think maybe it makes the R&F feel better about being in, and it makes the story that satan takes over when you leave true in their eyes, now however, the lurkers can see that those were just stories without any foundation.

IC

31

Misinformation in CoC

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

Thanks for that GBL, I will let you all know how it goes.

IC

31

Misinformation in CoC

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

Cygnus wow! you have guts! I know what you mean, maybe he really wanted to help others to see the "Truth" he felt he had just uncovered, who knows. When I started this journey down the rabbit hole, also thought that the JW's werent giving Jesus Christ the importance he deserved, and that we are all sons of god, until I continued sliding further down that rabbit hole and found out the rest, what a journey it has been, now I no longer believe that the Bible is the inspired word of god, and I no longer believe in organized religion, all thanks to the Internet!

Oh, I have thought of sending Ray an email, it would be interesting to talk to him, I really do admire that man.

IC

31

Misinformation in CoC

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

Narkissos, yes I was there, 25 years ago wow, who would have thought, with what I know now I would be labeled an apostate too! All I can say is, if Vazquez really said that in a public meeting he has all the more my respect.

I must admit, he had guts! I guess the discrepancy with his official letter might be due to the fact he didn't know he had been recorded and/or the JC didn't hold that public statement against him. Anyway, even as you relate the event this was not a formal call to break away from the organisation -- rather a desperate attempt to change it from inside.

Yes, I agree. Fwiw, the hearsay echo I had from this story in the early 80's (I was in the French Bethel then) is that most of this congregation partook in the Memorial, and this raised the suspicion of the Brooklyn Bethel when they got the figures. If the tape had been sent to Bethel right away I doubt René would have been allowed to give the Memorial talk. No it was just Vazquez and Angulo who partook, I think maybe the others that agreed with them perhaps didn't have the guts to do so. René was able to give the Memorial talk because Bethel hadn't heard about what was going on until after. So many rumors went around after that, people were saying that they formed a group and that they believed they were all going to heaven, also, that René and one of the pioneer sisters in my hall Gloria Rodriguez eventually got together and had an affair, anything to make them fit the stereotypical Apostate, sad really. IC IC

31

Misinformation in CoC

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

He knew René and had many freinds in the spanish halls, he spoke perfect spanish I don't see why he wouldn't have heard about this, it seems strange.

IC

31

Misinformation in CoC

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hello everyone, i know that many here like me have read ray's book crisis of consience, i was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the wts, and ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe.

but, i noticed something that wasn't quite correct when i was reading the part that spoke of then brother rene vazquez, he makes it seem like all rene did was have private conversations with ray and nothing else, this is not true, i for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

in a ms meeting on tuesday back in 1980, rene was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the wts .

ICBehindtheCurtain

Hello everyone, I know that many here like me have read Ray's book Crisis of Consience, I was very impressed with it, it helped open my eyes to the hypocrisy and double standards of the WTS, and Ray gave me the impresion of being a very loving and kind man, not the demonized apostate we were all lead to believe. BUT, I noticed something that wasn't quite correct when I was reading the part that spoke of then brother René Vázquez, he makes it seem like all René did was have private conversations with Ray and nothing else, this is not true, I for a fact know that this was not all that happened.

In a MS Meeting on Tuesday back in 1980, René was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the WTS , everyone looked around at each other shocked, this also went on in the various congregation book studies that week, 8 out of 9 elders were in on it, they all were saying that all we needed was the bible, these other books were unnecessary, well, a week later was the Memorial, Vazquez gave the talk and said some weird stuff about how all christians are sons of god and other stuff that I can't remember, it was a while back, but everyone was looking over at each other and wondering what was going on. Rafael Angulo which was one of the elders and a good freind of Vazquez, partook of the emblems, so did Vazquez, everyone was very surprised to say the least, one of the sisters was outraged and marched down to Bethel to tell them about this, another person had recorded the meeting, because Vazquez was an excellent speaker and had quite a following, this tape was turned in to Bethel for evidence against Vazquez.

This is what really happened, thats why I was quite surprised when all of that was left out of the CoC book, although today I don't agree at all with the WTS what René did, I feel was wrong, if he wanted to enlighten others, he should have done this privately, what was he thinking? that the WTS was just going to let him take over the KH? That following sunday we had a special talk by none other than Freddy Franz himself, and other WTS elite, he was saying stuff about how we must follow Jehovah's organization and not listen to private reasonings, (If only I knew then what I know now) anyway, Vazquez and Angulo were disfellowshipped along with Vazquez' mom, his wife, some of the pioneers and others. The congregation was really shaken by this, but the majority stayed on. Below is an excerpt from the book, although it is in spanish, I will translate some of it.

Se puede decir verdaderamente que ninguna de las personas expulsadas abrigaba idea alguna de separarse de los Testigos de Jehová, o tenía idea alguna de animar a otros a separarse. La actitud de ellos se expresa vivamente en esta carta escrita por René Vázquez al apelar la acción que se tomó contra él y su esposa:
It can be truthfully said, that none of the disfellowshipped persons had any desire of separating themselves from the Jehovah's Witnesses, or had any desire of getting others to separate themselves. They express themselves vividly in this letter written by René Vazquez in his appeal of the action taken against him and his wife:
René Vázquez
4 de Mayo 1980
Comité Judicial
Estimados hermanos:
Hallo necesario una vez más, por este medio, apelar a su razonamiento sano y juicio imparcial para que vean que no somos culpables de la acusación que se ha hecho en contra de nosotros, mi esposa y yo. Nosotros, de hecho, realmente no entendemos ni conocemos quiénes son nuestros acusadores. (We in fact, don't rightly know who are our accusers)
Durante nuestra reunión judicial, ver tras vez declaramos, desde el corazón, con toda veracidad ante Jehová Dios, que la mismísima idea de promover una secta, o ser apóstatas, es sumamente inconcebible de nuestra parte. ¿No se deja ver esto por mi servicio dedicado a Jehová Dios por los pasados treinta años, al grado de dar atención mínima a mi familia y a mi trabajo seglar? ¿Por qué debieran las recientes acciones con respecto a la consideración de algunos puntos de la Biblia en conversación privada con algunos queridos hermanos y amigos, de pronto tomarse como un ataque en contra de la organización, o como apostasía? (Why should recent actions with respect to considering some Bible points en a private conversation with some of our dear brothers and sisters, be quickly taken as an atack against the organization, or like an apostasy?)¿Por qué se debiera tomar una acción tan extremada como la de expulsión, cuando razonamiento sano, bondad, verdadero amor cristiano y misericordia, podrían enmendar y sanar cualesquier malos entendimientos junto con dolor de corazón que resultaran de habla imprudente, o la repetición de cosas que no estén en armonía con lo que se ha publicado por la Sociedad? ¿Dónde está la persona mala, la persona inícua, el odiador de Jehová, la persona rebelde, el obrador de actos inícuos, no arrepentido que debiera eliminarse? ¿Por qué debiera una definición legalista de apostasía usarse de una manera tan fría y sin misericordia para condenar a personas que no han hecho otra cosa sino servir fielmente y derramar sus almas a favor de los hermanos por tantos años?
¿Quienes son los que están causando reproche al nombre de Jehová, y dando un mal nombre o imagen a la organización? ¿No son las acciones drásticas que se están tomando, y los métodos desamorados que se están usando, y los rumores calumniadores que se están esparciendo, y la falta de misericordia y amor cristiano, la sospecha, el temor y terror de investigaciones inquisitorias, lo que está multiplicando mil veces más cualquier mal entendimiento o daño no intencinal debido a que algunas personas repitieran impropiamente algunas cosas que se dijeron? (who is it that is causing reproach to Jehovah's name and giving a bad name or image to the organization? Is it not the drastic actions that are being taken, and the loveless methods that are bing used, and the lying rumors that are being spread, and the lack of mercy and cristian love, the suspicion, the fear and terror of inquisitory investigations, what is multiplying a thousand times more any misunderstanding or unintentional damage due to some persons repeating inapropiately some things they heard?)
Hermanos, no hay nada sino amor en nuestro corazón por la entera asociación de nuestros hermanos, y de ninguna manera mi esposa y yo jamás hemos querido obrar con, ni hemos tenido, algún designio malicioso para causar confusión y perturbación de la fe de ellos. ¿Cómo trataría Jesucristo una situación como ésta?
Parece que el objetivo principal del comité era establecer culpabilidad, por establecer qye había apostasía. A pesar de nuestras expresiones repetidas del corazón, de que el seguir un curso de apostasía nos es inconcebible,que tal cosa nunca entró en nuestro corazón, esa acusación continuó haciéndose. El comité parece haber estado dedicado a probar que éramos apóstatas por medio de probar que conversaciones privadas que tuvimos con algunos de nuestros queridos hermanos, eran en efecto, parte de un complot malicioso para formar una secta o causar división por apostasía. (The comittee seems to be trying to prove that we were apostates by proving that private conversations that we had with some of our dear brothers, were in effect, part of a malicious plot to form a sect or to cause division by apostasy)En dos ocasiones diferentes el hermani Harold Jackson usó la ilustración de una muchacha joven que hubiera cometido fornicación, pero que en su mente, la idea de hacer eso era tan rechazada que ella, en efecto, creía que no había, y sin embargo ella estaba encinta. La aplicación sería que no importa cuán aborrecible sea para nosotros la idea de ser apóstatas, que no importa si nuestro corazón y conciencia nos dijeran que era inconcebible para nosotros hacer una cosa así, aún así somos apóstatas.
will translate some

You know? I really feel for the guy, but this was not the right way to go about it. He probably thought that what he was doing was right, but I just wonder why he thought that what he said was done in a private setting, maybe he was having emotional problems or something, anyway I heard that Vazquez was killed in a car accident last year I think, poor people, they sacrificed so much of their life for this CRAP! I wonder how his wife and sone are doing, and Rafael and Jenny Angulo, I wonder what became of all of them if any of you know, please let me know.

IC

35

My First Doubt

by tall penguin in

this may not seem like your typical doubt but it was the first time i allowed myself to question the bible and the wt's explanation of things.

about 6 years ago, i was assigned a talk on the man judah.

this was when we were doing talks on specific bible characters.

ICBehindtheCurtain

Nathan, thank you for your rambles, I enjoyed them. That book you recommended sounds interesting, looks like I will be adding to my collection. As far as looking at the bible in this new way, I will probably need time, right now I'm too angry at the bible writers for the big deception they were all a part of.

IC

17

Was King Solomon really wise?

by VM44 in

was king solomon really wise?

the bible gives one example of his wisdom in the way that he determined which mother was the the actual mother of a baby.

a method, by the way, that involved trickery.

ICBehindtheCurtain

What King Solomon? Sorry, there is no evidence he even existed, the Jewish people might have just needed some heroes of their own, to keep up with other more advanced people around them.

IC

38

Bethelite Attorney-In-Training Receives Award

by West70 in

general studies student receives women's forum education award

school of general studies student kathleen apltauer has received the 2005 women's forum educational award.

the award is presented annually to new york city women in recognition of the extraordinary and heroic efforts they have made in order to overcome adversity in their lives.

ICBehindtheCurtain

Those hypocritical Bastards!!!!!!

IC