Posts by Ingenuous

28

If you were paid to be an active JW, would you accept?

by JH in

jw
friends

.

even if you don't believe in what you'd preach, would you accept being a jw in return for a salary?.

why not?

Do any Bible passages/stories make you emotional or cry

by Cygnus in

jw
friends

absalom, a complete asshole, met an untimely death, and even though he caused untold trouble to his father, david still wept bitterly over his son, 'absalom,oh my son absalom!

" that one still gets to me.. and at the end of one of rush's more emotional songs, distant early warning (1984), geddy calls out "absalom!

absalom!

Ingenuous

(Genesis 27:41-45) 41However, E´sau harbored animosity for Jacob on account of the blessing with which his father had blessed him, and E´sau kept saying in his heart: "The days of the period of mourning for my father are getting closer. After that I am going to kill Jacob my brother." 42 When the words of E´sau her older son were told to Re·bek´ah, she at once sent and called Jacob her younger son and said to him: "Look! E´sau your brother is comforting himself in regard to you—to kill you. 43 Now, then, my son, listen to my voice and get up, run away to La´ban my brother at Ha´ran. 44 And you must dwell with him for some days until the rage of your brother calms down, 45 until the anger of your brother turns away from you and he has forgotten what you have done to him.. . .

(Genesis 32:3-8) 3Then Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to E´sau his brother to the land of Se´ir, the field of E´dom, 4 and he commanded them, saying: "This is what YOU will say to my lord, to E´sau, ‘This is what your servant Jacob has said: "With La´ban I have resided as an alien and I have stayed for a long time till now. 5 And I have come to have bulls and asses, sheep, and menservants and maidservants, and I would like to send to notify my lord, that I may find favor in your eyes."’" 6 In time the messengers returned to Jacob, saying: "We got to your brother E´sau, and he is also on his way to meet you, and four hundred men with him." 7 And Jacob became very much afraid and grew anxious. So he divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and the cattle and the camels into two camps, 8 and he said: "If E´sau should come to the one camp and assault it, then there is certain to be a camp remaining to make an escape."

(Genesis 33:1-3) . . .In time Jacob raised his eyes and looked, and here E´sau was coming and with him four hundred men. Consequently he divided off the children to Le´ah and to Rachel and to the two maidservants, 2and he put the maidservants and their children foremost and Le´ah and her children after them and Rachel and Joseph to the rear of them. 3 And he himself passed on ahead of them and proceeded to bow down to the earth seven times until he got near to his brother.

(Genesis 33:4) . . .And E´sau went running to meet him, and he began to embrace him and fall upon his neck and kiss him, and they burst into tears....

32

Texas KH advertizing free pastoral counseling!

by rebel8 in

came across this accidentally.

jws listed in a mental health directory as providing free pastoral counseling!

http://www.fortworthgov.org/health/or/mental2001.asp

Ingenuous

I like that letter, rebel8. I wonder, though, if they'll direct you to the "Letters to the Editor" section.

15

Service Meeting week of August 28, 2005

by TheListener in

song 45.

10 min: local announcements.

remind publishers to turn in field service reports for august.

Ingenuous

20 min: Feature the bible on Initial Calls. Talk and audience discussion. Review suggestions in the September 2004 Our Kingdom Ministry, page 4, paragraph 2, for directing attention to God's Word on initial calls. Demonstrate how one or two of the suggested presentations could be used with the literature offer for September. Suggestions in the January 2005 Our Kingdom Ministry insert for presenting the offer may also be discussed and demonstrated as time permits.

So the ultimate aim isn't to end with their attention on the Bible, but with their attention on the "literature offer."

No wonder they publish "Questions from Readers" from publishers confused as to whether a study using only the Bible can be counted as a "real" study!

41

Why So Many JWs Are Sick ( and What to Do About it)

by metatron in

jw
friends

i'm not a medical professional - but i feel very strongly about this issue and want to pass it along.. why are so many witnesses so sick?

why do they often seem to be plagued by strange, chronic illnesses - that often appear.

to have a strong psychosomatic element?

Back in February, I started experiencing severe fatigue and muscle pain. My GP couldn't figure it out. The osteopath couldn't figure it out. The rheumatologist said, "Good luck." My mom's friend, who has CF/FM said it was what she had. I had tender points all over my body, would wake up in the middle of the night with my muscles screaming from laying on a particular area too long. Nothing got rid of the pain, including Bextra. I couldn't get enough sleep; no matter how long I was in bed, I was exhausted all day. There were days I couldn't do much more than lay on my back and watch TV, though I was often too tired to pay attention to it.

I stopped doing the JW thing between a month and 6 weeks ago and started working through my questions and conflicts with the Org. I've had practically no symptoms since. Maybe my unconscious mind knew something I didn't? Maybe I'm still on the high I get from my new freedom?

Hmmmm....

11

Disfellowship article, ideas please

by jwfacts in

i have written an article for my parents.

they are somewhat influential in the org and i am trying to convince them to push for changes to current disfellowshipping policy, not that i hold out too much hope.

anyway, i would like what i have written checked for accuracy.

Ingenuous

Excellent write-up. Thorough and logical.

Some minor spelling/grammar issues:

Since the introduction of disfellowshipping there have been a number of changes in Watchtower doctrine and hence the reasons for being disfellowshipped have also changed back and forth. The practice of smoking did not become an offence until the 1970’s. Vaccinations and Organ transplants were an offence worthy of being disfellowshipped for over a decade, but are now [no]longer viewed as wrong.

Even if we do stretch disfellowshipping to include all the above reasons as listed in the Insight Book we still do not [..] the comprehensive list of reasons for which a Jehovah’s Witness can be disfellowshipped.

Oral and Anal sex.
These practices were common in bible times and yet are never touched upon in the bible. Because there is no biblical precedence [precedent] the Watchtower has changed back and forth on whether or not this is a matter for disfellowshipping.

An example of one of these ‘catch all’ concepts is the application of ( a·sel´gei·a) loose conduct. Scholars recognise loose conduct to be centred [centered] on sexual depravity, as shown in Strong’s concordance .

Notice that the Watchtower adds to the standard definition that it includes an attitude of disrespect for authority. Disrespect is said to encompass not agreeing with elders in a committee meeting or disagreeing with the Watchtower Society. Hence, a biblical term generally related to shameless sexual conduct becomes the Watchtower Societies [Society's] justification for disfellowshipping for all manner of conduct, such as speaking to a disfellowshipped person.

3. Speed of process
In the scriptures it makes no mention of a time limit over which the process must take place in.

5. Overly Harsh
A review of the Insight book Volume 1 p.788 Expelling shows that the majority of scriptures that relate to disfellowshipping discuss assisting or reproving the person. For extreme cases, brothers should not be ‘eaten with’ so only extends to social interaction, but it does not say anything about not talking to these at meetings.

Only elders have access to Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock ant [and] to the letters from the Society.

Conclusion.... Over half of the Witness children I grew up [...] are now disfellowshipped, placing extreme strain on their families.... This means less are likely [...] return from a disfellowshipped state.... One of Jesus [Jesus'] greatest commands was to show love, not just to ones [one's] brother, but to ones [one's] neighbour.

It'd be good to see references for the following, which may sound like "apostate" inventions to those who've never seen such things in print:

Any person advocating the worship of Jesus is to be disfellowshipped for idolatry, yet to worship Jesus is still stated in the Watchtower Charter to be the reason the Watchtower Society was formed.

There have been ongoing changes in the rules on disfellowshipping because many of the reasons are not clearly specified in the bible. So how does the Governing Body arrive at these undefined principles? Does the Holy Spirit guide them to examine scripture and arrive at a uniform consensus on what God’s standard is? No. When a new principle is discussed a vote is taken and the majority vote is held. When a situation arises in a congregation that are not clearly specified in the bible and the elders and branch feel unable to deal with it this is also referred to the Governing Body. This also is decided by vote and rarely is the vote unanimous. In a court of law, if a vote is not unanimous a person can not be convicted. This is not the case for a Witness.

6. Family
The bible does not state shunning should extend to immediate family members. The Mosaic Law that demanded killing ones own family members involved in wrong doing was done away with by Jesus and should not be referred to as justification. {It'd be good to list the article that mentions what can only be described as regret that such ones can't be executed. - 11/15/52 p.703}

7. Time to reinstatement
The bible does not discuss how long before reinstatement can take place. It only makes statements such as to avoid ‘a fornicator’. This implies the person to be avoided is practicing the sin. However, the Watchtower Society has introduced the ‘minimum 6 month’ rule of thumb.

8. Baptised without understanding
Since 1985 the second Jehovah’s Witness baptism vow became “(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?” (Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30). At baptism a person commits themselves to the Organisation. Few realise that they have committed both their bedroom lives and work choices to the Organisation. Terms such as “ecclesiastical government of Jehovah's Witnesses” are never used in the Watchtower publications that are issued to the public, but are terms used within confidential letters to branches and the elders.

8. Baptised without understanding.... Even elders do not get to know the guidelines for all situations as more difficult situations are discussed in letters specifically to the Branches.

Thoughts:

Blood transfusions
Eating of blood was not given as a prohibition until the Mosaic Law, and as such was done away with by Jesus death.

Some will look to Genesis 9:4,5 as preceeding the Mosaic Law and being binding on all mankind from the time of Noah onward. You may want to address this particular objection.

Birthdays
Celebration of birthdays is a simple practice that was common in bible times as the bible mentions two birthday parties. To try to explain to a non Witness why birthday parties are wrong is very difficult as the bible makes no comment as to whether these celebrations are wrong or not.

I've always wondered why it is OK for JWs to celebrate anniversaries (said to be OK because it's "an institution originated by Jehovah") but not OK to celebrate birthdays (given that life was "originated by Jehovah" as well).

2

Paperback Bibles = Prison Edition?

by Ingenuous in

i stumbled across this on ebay.

is this what the paperback bibles actually are?

the prison edition?.

Ingenuous

I stumbled across this on eBay. Is this what the paperback Bibles actually are? The Prison edition?

8

Are you angry or rebellious? My sister thinks I am.

by findingmyway in

my sister although not df'd at the time, explored at least one other religion.

she attended regularly and was a sunday school teacher.

i asked her today what was her motivation and asked if she had ever done research about the organization.

Ingenuous

FMW - This is too familiar for me. I got a call from my sister Friday night where she asked if I left because of something someone did to me. I said, "no," and she responded that 'it's so late [in this system]' and started crying. Because JWs don't recognize any other religion or approach to God as legitimate, anyone who has problems with the Org is automatically "rebelling against Jehovah." It's unreasonable, but it's also what's been ingrained in those of us who were born "in."

I, too, tried to be the perfect daughter. Therefore, I'm getting a special kind of wrath from my family reserved for such children who go "astray." Like talesin, I'm just getting around to independent thinking, and I'm 28.

The problems we have when getting out are different from the problems we had while "in", but that doesn't mean we were without problems. You mentioned how dishonest you felt going door-to-door and that's a very different thing than being picked-on for obeying your conscience and trying to develop a faith you can live with.

I've been attending Bible Student groups and really enjoy them. Lots of discussion, respectful disagreement, and the warmest people I've ever met. I'm also looking into churches of the Disciples of Christ. What draws me to both is an emphasis on a personal relationship with God and a respect for the intellect of individuals while holding to a few necessary (to me) tenets of faith. I'm doing a lot of reading and asking questions - and don't feel guilty anymore about it! I'm truly open to learning - very different from always being on the defensive, which I was when I was a JW. I think it's important, however, to not necessarily jump right in to another group until you know you're ready for it, i.e., that you're familiar with the tactics of intellectual dishonesty and can recognize when you may be trading the frying pan for the fire. I also found it important to get more familiar with my "textbook", the Bible, before moving on - if I have doubts/questions about my source" for truth, everything else I build on it will be unsteady and pointless.

JMHO

33

Oooo, now I'm a Satan worshipper - Care to respond to Dad's latest attack?

by Ingenuous in

i'm not going to answer this email from my dad.

he didn't listen the umpteen times i responded to his questions before - i'm not putting myself through that again.

i too thought about these things.

Ingenuous

Great responses, guys.

The problem with answering this latest bit of "insight" is that it simply prolongs the inevitable. Perhaps if I was a masochist, I'd enjoy the abuse sure to be hurled my way in the meantime. But I gave up masochism when I left JWs. Before this latest email, I've responded, and Responded, and RESPONDED to his arguments/assertions, to absolutely no benefit. Nothing I say makes a dent in his prejudices, no answers I give replace the assumptions he's made.

I love him dearly, I understand where he's coming from and why, and I only hope I can be patient and Christ-like for as long as it takes. Responding will just result in more pain for both of us.

I don't see this as "letting him get away with it." To keep someone from "getting away" with something, they have to hear and understand your argument and admit they're in the wrong - or, at least, that their perspective is not the only correct one.

I love the guy, but it seems all he hears when I talk is a series of clicks and whistles.

33

Oooo, now I'm a Satan worshipper - Care to respond to Dad's latest attack?

by Ingenuous in

i'm not going to answer this email from my dad.

he didn't listen the umpteen times i responded to his questions before - i'm not putting myself through that again.

i too thought about these things.

Ingenuous

Dams - Great idea, but writing to her is pointless. She's not only under the spell of the Org, she's completely under my Dad's influence as well.

We used to have a running joke when I was little: "Daddies know everything." I'm just realizing it wasn't a joke.