Cognitive_Dissident

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Posts by Cognitive_Dissident

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  73

  D'Fing and Love

  by I-CH-TH-U-S in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i once talked to a jw about disfellowshipping and was curious to how can this be showing a christly love when you all out turn your back on them.

  he gave me an answer about rightousness and unrightrousness having no fellowship (which is biblical) but it didnt make sense to me.

  didnt seem applicable in many ways.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  edited: accidentally posted it twice.
  
  CD
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  73

  D'Fing and Love

  by I-CH-TH-U-S in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i once talked to a jw about disfellowshipping and was curious to how can this be showing a christly love when you all out turn your back on them.

  he gave me an answer about rightousness and unrightrousness having no fellowship (which is biblical) but it didnt make sense to me.

  didnt seem applicable in many ways.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  I think that's exactly why. If someone said to me - "All right, here are the major things that we believe, and oh, by the way, after you're baptized, if you screw up and do something you're not supposed to and subsequently don't think it's as big a deal as we think you ought to, you're going to get kicked out and none of your new friends who were so elated that you got baptized in the first place will talk to you." - I'd probably run away, too.
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  73

  D'Fing and Love

  by I-CH-TH-U-S in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i once talked to a jw about disfellowshipping and was curious to how can this be showing a christly love when you all out turn your back on them.

  he gave me an answer about rightousness and unrightrousness having no fellowship (which is biblical) but it didnt make sense to me.

  didnt seem applicable in many ways.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  If you voluntarily join any organization, be it a golf club, a political party, or a religion and you flagrantly flout ITS rules, then you would expect some discipline, even being expelled, disfellowshipped.
  
  That is true, but how does that statement apply to those of us who were raised in it, and never had any real choice?
  
  How much choice does a child have when, by the time he's old enough to start really analyzing the world around him, his entire world - family, friends, meetings three times a week, studying, etc. - is defined by the religion he was born in to? By the time someone who is raised as a Witness is old enough to voluntarily decide for himself whether or not he wants to be a part of that group, the negative consequences that await him if he decides to leave are absolutely devastating. It means walking away from family, friends, and everything you've ever really known.
  
  The other thing is that there is an inherent dishonesty in trying to get people to become Witnesses, because the full picture is not presented to people who are studying. How many Witnesses give all the details of the disfellowshipping arrangement to newly interested ones?
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  73

  D'Fing and Love

  by I-CH-TH-U-S in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i once talked to a jw about disfellowshipping and was curious to how can this be showing a christly love when you all out turn your back on them.

  he gave me an answer about rightousness and unrightrousness having no fellowship (which is biblical) but it didnt make sense to me.

  didnt seem applicable in many ways.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  I-CH-TH-U-S,
  
  I can see where on the surface the disfellowhsipping policy may seem necessary from the standpoint of "keeping the congregation clean," following the logic of "a little leaven ferments the whole lump."
  
  But the analogy does not hold. The logic employed to justify disfellowshipping is inherently flawed.
  
  If the analogy of one or two drops of red dye turning an entire aquarium red were to validly apply to a congregation it would mean that ANY outside influence would have the same effect.
  
  By removing someone from the congregation and prohibiting contact with that one under threat of punishment, the policy is saying in effect that those in the congregation are not spiritually mature enough to decide for themselves whom they should or should not associate with.
  
  If "the Truth" as the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society presents it, is as powerful and life-changing as they claim it to be, shouldn't it be able to instruct its individual followers well enough so that it's obvious who is and is not a "spiritual danger"?
  
  And apart from that, does just listening to someone's ideas automatically guarantee that you will be "tainted" by them, and result in the complete rejection of everything that you currently "know to be the Truth"?
  
  If the truth will actually set a person free, it should be able to stand up to different viewpoints and criticism. If an idea, or system of ideas, is threatened by even the most modest questions and criticisms, does it mean that the answer is simply to stop asking questions?
  
  And what does it say about an organization which has implemented a policy which does exactly that - removes any person whose voice or actions raise a question concerning an established idea?
  
  The scripture that is often quoted in disfellowshipping and disciplinary matters is Proverbs 27:11, which in the New World Translation reads: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." The interpretation that is given to it by the Witnesses is that Witnesses need to act appropriately(do what the Society says), so that Jehovah can make a reply to Satan regarding the question of his sovereignty and right to rule, by saying to Satan, "Look, these people aren't forced, and they still haven't chosen to follow me." If any who disagree in action or thought are simply kicked out, what kind of basis for a reply is that?
  
  If you threaten to punch someone in the face unless he tells you that you're right, and then ask him whether or not you're right, of what value is it when he tells you that you are?
  
  I don't mean to beat this in to the ground, but I've been on all sides of this question, and none of them are rational or loving.
  
  CD
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  73

  D'Fing and Love

  by I-CH-TH-U-S in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i once talked to a jw about disfellowshipping and was curious to how can this be showing a christly love when you all out turn your back on them.

  he gave me an answer about rightousness and unrightrousness having no fellowship (which is biblical) but it didnt make sense to me.

  didnt seem applicable in many ways.

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  2. 
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  Cognitive_Dissident

  Disfellowshipping is a horrible, unloving policy. There is absolutely no love to be found in it, anywhere. It employs fear and isolation to inflict punitive emotional damage on those who don't live up to an impossibly high standard. Those sitting in judgment of disfellowshipped ones, the men on the Judicial Committees, are presented to the congregation as "loving shepherds" who will work with a person to try to help them "in a loving spirit". But in reality they are a harsh disciplinary committee. Disfellowshipping is NOT loving, and any attempt to justify it as being so is most likely motivated out of indoctrination and fear.
  
  CD
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  21

  JWD Milestone coming close

  by Lady Lee in

  1. forum
  2. announcements

  i have been watching the page counts for the last 2 months.. jwd is close to have 5000 pages of posts.

  as of this post we are still 11 pages away from the 5000 mark (4989).

  i bet simon never expected this to grow the way it has or become the wonderful resource and gathering place of so many who need the support and understanding of those who need it.. from active jws to ex-jws to doubting jws to ubms of jws and even the curious as well as the odd student wanting to write a paper jwd has been a great place to learn, get and give support and connect with others.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  How about a competition ... predict the date that we'll hit the 2 millionth post (should be in about 6 months)
  
  We actually already hit it back in '75, but it happened invisibly.
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  29

  Why Christianity is all about judgement!

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this joke was written by the comedian emo phillips.

  what makes it funny is that it captures christianity to the exact point we all should know.

  enjoy .... voted the funniest religious joke of all time.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  yeah, he's consistently the one that I listen to most on a regular basis
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  29

  Why Christianity is all about judgement!

  by free2beme in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this joke was written by the comedian emo phillips.

  what makes it funny is that it captures christianity to the exact point we all should know.

  enjoy .... voted the funniest religious joke of all time.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  that's fantastic. Wraps it up very nicely.
  
  no, not at all! everyone is going to the same place when we die: no where.
  
  Tetra, that reminds me of a good Tom Waits lyric:
  
  What does it matter, a dream of love
  Or a dream of lies
  We're all gonna be in the same place
  When we die
  Your spirit don't leave knowing
  Your face or your name
  And the wind through your bones
  Is all that remains
  And we're all gonna be
  We're all gonna be
  Just dirt in the ground
  
  from the song Dirt in the Ground
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  51

  Elder school notes, Part 2: hysterical screed against education continues

  by sir82 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  continuing this morning's notes, in the same format.... talk 5: overview - organized to do jehovah's will - brother bethel-coot.

  synopsis: general high level review of contents of new "organized to do jehovah's will" (od) book.

  pointed out how to use index (duh!

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  "Following the guidelines in this book promotes peace and unity among the body of elders"
  
  Wow, that is ridiculous.
  
  I mean I know they push to read the bible, but only look to them to tell you what it means, but holy crap, that's just outright.
  
  Just think what would happen if I were to say in a talk that it's more important to follow the Organized To Do jehovah's Will than to follow the bible? Actually, what am I saying, they'd probably give me a medal and make me a CO.
  
  CD
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  22

  I wasn't even my choice...should it count?

  by findingmyway in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i can't help thinking that if i had never gotten baptized out of loyalty and fear of disappointing my parents (and fear of having my flesh eaten by birds of prey after being destroyed in armageddon), i would not be in this situation.

  i have several family members and former friends who were raised as jws, but never got baptized, and they never have to experience the angst and pain that i have to experience.

  i was baptized and never dedicated my life.

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  Cognitive_Dissident

  They should make provisions for people to admit that they skipped the "dedication" step, so that they can be considered the same as people who were never baptized.
  
  Unfortunately, I think they would be even harsher if you used those exact words. I can't think of a specific quote from a publication, but the gist of what I'm thinking is this - they would say that a person who got baptized without actually dedicating themselves committed a grievous sin. I remember when I got baptized, at 17 (still not old enough to know what I was getting in to), and they hammered it in to me that baptism was not something that one entered in to lightly, and would be very bad if I were not doing it out of "the right heart condition". Of course I wasn't sure exactly why I was doing it, I wanted to believe it was my own choice, and did my best to convince myself of that, but in reality I did it because I was 17 and people were starting to wonder what was holding me back. I think it's sick that they even let kids as young as 12 get baptized, I've even known a few people that got baptized at 8. That's just plain wrong.
  
  I think if they were reasonable enough to take what you ask in to consideration then none of us would be in the situation that a lot of us are.
  
  CD