And here you expose the double standard of JWs. Whenever they come across research from any of these fields that they feel is evidence in support of their beliefs, they have no issue using it when debating critics. But if there is any data or consensus of experts that runs contrary to what they already believe, all of a sudden human knowledge is unreliable.
GMahler
JoinedPosts by GMahler
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16
Arguments I’ve Had: Historical Accuracy and the Bible
by Saethydd inwhen i was a jw and still living with my parents i remember the way my father held what could almost be described as contempt for archeologists, paleontologists, and other scientists who dared to try explain what happened in past.
he justified this attidtude with the argument that these people don’t have enough evidence to make such claims with any certainty.
however, i see now that his viewpoint was more likely a defense mechanism to protect his presupposed conclusion that everything described in the bible actually happened.
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CO asked for everyone 20 years old & younger for a group photo
by LevelThePlayingField inthere was a co visit in ohio a couple weeks ago.
when he was finishing up his sunday talk he said that he would like if "all the children that are from this congregation, not if you're just visiting, but from this congregation to come on up on the stage right after the meeting because i want to get a picture of you.".
i thought to myself, why?
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GMahler
Something similar happened when I was a kid. One week my congregation had a visiting Bethel speaker. Towards the end of his first talk he asks all the kids in the 5-7 years of age range to come up and stand next to him on the stage. Then he does the same for kids 8-12. This continues until he has everyone under the age of 20 standing on the platform.
It's funny, when he first called for my age range I refused to go on stage. I just thought it was a stupid display of theater. As more and more kids were going onto the stage (including my younger brother), my mother was feeling the pressure and the embarrassment. I only went on stage because she forced me to.
Once we were all on stage he says "Behold, the future Mt. Pleasant congregation!", then he directs us to sing one of the Kingdom songs, which goes horribly. The speaker, noticing this, says something to the effect of parents needing to direct their arrows more carefully.
In the end, I would say that 80-90% of those who were on the stage that evening have almost nothing to do with JWs anymore. And most of those that are still involved are just going through the motions.
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26
Born Ins, How Did Your Parents Get "The Truth™"?
by pale.emperor inborn ins are in a unique position in that we never knew any other way of life.
no birthdays, christmas and overly superstitious family just seemed normal.
when my parents talked about their pre-jw life it seemed like they were talking about completely different people (actually, that's true, the cult had taken their real selves).. so i'd be interested in hearing how your parents were indoctrinated.. my dad.
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GMahler
My mother grew up going to church, but she said that she and her siblings did so more for "entertainment". For them it was more about seeing the grandiose and over-the-top performances of older church members when they were under the influence of "the holy ghost". During her final years of college, she felt there was something missing from her life, so she started going to church looking for answers. The spirit-inspired displays that entertained her in her youth felt empty and superficial now. She felt there had to be some truth out there but didn't know where to find it. One day while pouring out her feelings about her search for truth to a friend, this friend, who had been studying with JWs, recommended that she give it a shot. So my mother approached the next JW she saw and requested a bible study. In her own words, from the moment she started studying she knew it was "the truth".
Interestingly enough, this was not her first contact with JWs. She has a clear memory from her childhood of when they came to evangelize to her mother or grandmother (I can't remember which). They left with her one of their books with vivid illustrations of Armageddon. It was during the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis and my mother was frightened that she was going to die in an atomic bomb apocalypse. She made a connection between the illustrations of Armageddon in the book and the possible end of civilization by means of the atomic bomb. I think it all came full circle for her when she started to study the bible with JWs, as if it were meant to be. She got baptized a year before I was born.
My father never was interested in JWs. He's always been th spiritual but not religious type. But he had no objections to my mother raising my brother and I according to JW doctrine, so that was an integral part of our upbringing.
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GB Gerrit Losch and his questionable article in the 7/14 WT study edition!!!
by ADJUSTMENTS inin this article gerrit talks about his father in the first and last paragraphs, what he says about him and his hope for him goes against all that witnesses have preached about the worldly for the last 100 years... as i recall aren't all the worldly supposed to be destroyed and never have a hope of everlasting life like jw's are, and isn't that the purpose of the preaching work to baptize and warn the worldly of this???
if not why do jws even preach, or even become jws in the first place if all have a hope of everlasting life, jw and non-jw, are they releasing a little hint at new light to come???
or am i just missing or over analyzing something?.
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GMahler
ADJUSTMENTS-
It has always been my understanding that all those who die before the great tribulation and have little to no knowledge of JW doctrine will be resurrected so that they have the opportunity to learn and convert during the thousand year reign. It's at the end of the thousand year reign that they, along with all the others who survived the great tribulation, will be tested when Satan is released. If they pass that test, then they will go on to live eternal life in paradise.
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When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed? Why It Matters - What the Evidence Shows
by wannabefree inobviously 607 is a problem, watchower coming out full forces on this one in the latest public edition.. http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_e_20111001.pdf.
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GMahler
The truth is that the average JW doesn't even know who Carol Olof Jonsson is or about any ofthe events that took place in Bethel during the late 70's/early 80's. They aren't even aware that reliable scholarship favors the 586/587 BCE date, or that there is even any academic interest in Neo-Babylonian archaeology in general. Even though this article is, at best, a superficial treatment of the issue, for most JWs, it's content is entirely too deep for them. As has been mentioned, most readers will skim through the article and simply accept the 607 BCE date without any question.
I suspect the reason this article has been posted is because Bethel has been inudated with questions about this issue. I thought it was interesting that they would release this article after talking about sending questions for research in the Private Edition of October's Watchtower. I'm sure elders have been questioned about this,too. Even though I don't expect them to take any more interest in this article than the average JW, it will supply them with a reference should any members of their congregation raise any questions. And if any member's of the congregation are unsatisfied with their answer, they can always say, "The faithful slave has already dealt with this issue. Either get in line with Jehovah's direction or show yourself the door!".
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What are your favorite rap albums of all time?
by JimmyPage inokay, most of these are going to show my age.
notorious b.i.g.
"life after death".
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GMahler
Nas - Illmatic
Dr. Dre - The Chronic
Pete Rock & CL Smooth - Mecca and the Soul Brother
Little Brother - The Minstrel Show
Wu Tang Clan - 36 Chambers and Wu-Tang Forever
GZA/Genius - Liquid Swords
Raekwon the Chef - Only Built 4 Cuban Links
Ghostface Killah - Supreme Clientele
Common - Finding Forever
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Should Prostitution Be Legalized???
by minimus inrecently, in the news were reports of 90 plus year old men being arrested for soliciting prostitutes.
i believe the charges were dropped.
and the vast majority of people polled thought that police should worry less about prostitutes and johns and more about city government waste.. your thoughts?.
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GMahler
Can someone tell me how to do paragraphs on this thing. I lurk more than I post, so I'm not sure how to do this. So whenever I post, it looks like one long paragraph. Sorry.
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71
Should Prostitution Be Legalized???
by minimus inrecently, in the news were reports of 90 plus year old men being arrested for soliciting prostitutes.
i believe the charges were dropped.
and the vast majority of people polled thought that police should worry less about prostitutes and johns and more about city government waste.. your thoughts?.
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GMahler
As usual, I'm late coming into one of these "conversations". It seems that by the time I post all interest is lost in a subject. But since this is something I've taken the time to think about, I want to add my two cents. Yes, I think prostitution should be legalized. Not simply because I don't believe in the legislation of morality either. I think that if it is an act between consenting adults, there is no harm in it. To compare prostitution to theft or murder or rape is to overstate the point. Those are unilateral acts that are not between consenting parties. Prostitution is. BA has made some cogent arguments against the legalization of prostitution. But, in the end, they're simply his opinion. What I mean is, while love and meaningful relationships are great, it's not what everyone is looking for. For some people, marriage and children bring happiness. Or, at the very least, monogomous, long-term relationships. And such relationships have much to commend them. But this may not be the case for others. Some may actually find some kind of deep, personal satisfaction out of sexual relations with prostitutes. My trip to Europe last year really changed the way I looked at things. I thought I was liberal minded before I went there. Europeans make American liberals look like conservatives. In Amsterdam especially, I was impressed. I'm not suggesting that no one hear has traveled far and wide or that I have some insight that others do not. Perhaps some here have seen the world and they took away something different. But what impressed me was that those things that many Americans say would be the downfall of society are practiced there and there are no negative social repercussions that I could see. In other words what I am trying to say is this: BA has some very good points that should be given serious consideration. But as far as I am concerned, it's just theory. Until we actually SEE what happens if prostitution is legalized in this country, there is no telling what could result. I have however seen the legalization of prostitution in another country, and there was no adverse effects that I could see. If prostitution is legalized and properly regulated, I give it my full support.
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Have any of you studdied the similaries between Zoraster and Christianity?
by dawg ini've always found it interesting that satan isn't mentioned by name in the bible until job.
i found the similarity's between the emergence of jesus' teachings, and the similarities of the zoroaster faith interesting.
i hope you guys will take the time to copy, paste, and read this article.
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GMahler
I've always been fascinated with religions of all kinds, even going back to my days as a JW. I remember how excited I was when the book "Mankind's Search for God" was released. I had always hoped that it would one day be used in our congregation book studies, but, for some odd reason, no such announcement was ever made. Or will be, as far as I can tell. (As a side note, I remember that my best friend at the time (who's an elder now) told me that whenever someone out in field service would say to him that they had their own religion, he would say to them, "That's good, because during our meetings we study other religions", and then pull out the "Mankind's Search for God" book as proof of this. Even then I though that such actions were dishonest.) Anyway, even though I'm an atheist now, I am still fascinated with religion and spend a lot of time studying the subject. I've knows of the Zoroastrian faith for several years now, and I've read about it here and there, but nothing in depth. This doesn't seem like a topic that would catch on fire as much as some of the others that are posted on this board, but I would like to cast my vote to see a topic dedicated to it in the near future. I admit that I'm more of a lurker in this forum than a poster, but if Leolaia were to start a thread on it in this fall I would do some research and contribute to the discussion as much as possible.
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A kind response to Jim Penton & Ros of Channel C
by Amazing inthe following are transports of postings on http://www.channelc.org/ made by jim penton and ros regarding myself and james caputo respectively.
the reason that i did not post directly on channel c is that ros and many of her board participants do not like to see anything that resembles catholic discussion, even if the responses are done respectfully and in a spirit of clarifying a false claim or misunderstanding.
i too do not like "catholic" discussions on channel c, and have not posted there for 9 months until i recently posted an announcement about tom cabeen's interviews on ewtn and with randy watters.
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GMahler
I must confess that I am more of a "lurker" in this forum than a poster. I do, however, have some knowledge of the events that transpired in this case and I would like to add my two cents. It was when I first began my journey from the Watchtower Society some six years ago that I became acquainted with the Channel C forum. Looking for an alternative to my JW upbringing, I had hoped to find a place where close-minded dogmatism was replaced with open-minded dialogue. At first I thought I had found such a place. Over time, however, it became apparent that Channel C was not the kind of forum I had imagined. I know Jim Caputo personally. He and Tom Cabeen were the first ex-JW's I came into contact with as I began my exit from the WTS. I've known Jim Caputo for six years and during that time have had many conversations with him. At no time during our exchanges did Jim proselytize or attempt to convince me that I would be any lesser of a person if I did not join the Catholic Church. I can say in all honesty that you will never meet a person more open-minded than Jim Caputo. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have an opinion to express. But he always leaves the option open to you as to whether or not to accept it. I will never forget the time Jim said to me, "If you were to call me tomorrow and tell me that you accept the Faithful and Discreet Slave as God's authority, I would still accept you as a friend". I was a witness to many of the exchanges between Jim P. and Jim C. when they first took place. I felt that it amounted to nothing more than a smear campaign by Jim P. I have read many of the posts of Jim P. that do not pertain to the Catholic faith, but to his distaste for the WTS. I have always been amazed at the irony of this. Jim P. has no problem criticizing the WTS for it's close-mindedness and intolerance to divergent beliefs, but has not problem taking the same approach to those who disagree with him, especially when it comes to matters of doctrine. While I respect the education Jim P. has received in Church History, he has displayed by his comments that he has some bias, or even ignorance, when it comes to certain features of this field. Even if after all his research and education he has come to have a different view that Jim C., he should at least allow him the courtesy of having an opinion. I saw on Channel C how while any diatribes against Catholicism were not only tolerated, but encouraged. On the other hand, any defense against such criticisms were automatically labeled as "proselytizing". Even an attempt to correct simple misunderstandings of the Catholic faith were met with the most severe condemnation. The truth is, there are many on Channel C who have sincere questions and who are not looking for debate. Perhaps they will join the Catholic faith, perhaps they will not. Whatever decision they make, it must be a balanced and informed decision. It is for this reason that they should here both sides, not simply restricted to hearing only what those against the Catholic faith have to say. I am not an apologist for the Catholic faith. At this point in my life I do not affiliate myself with any religious faith. I am, however, opposed to intolerance, which I believe the Channel C forum is guilty of. To those who are not familiar with it, it may seem like a place for those who have questions about their faith to find open-minded dialogue. Many who come to such forums are a different places in their life. Some have begun their exit from the WTS. Others are just considering it. Or perhaps they have no desire to exit, but just want to have an outlet for their doubts. It is important, therefore, that in whatever forum they find themselves, they are able to find others who will be tolerant of their beliefs. When I left the WTS I wanted to escape intolerance, not simply find another environment conducive to intolerance. And this is what I feel Channel C has created. It feels like they've created their own online version of the WTS. It is for this reason that I no longer have any interest with Channel C.