Posts by mdb

277

What say you Christians ???

by wobble in

it seems to me that most, if not all christians are really hung up on sin and redemption from sin and how naturally evil we all are.. my question, and observation is this : i had nothing to do with whatever you say adam and eve did wrong, i have always, throughout my life, treated whoever i came into contact with compassion, respect and love.. i have lived by the golden rule.. not many people, hand on heart, can say that, i can.. so, is your god going to judge me for the "sin" of some mythical forebears of mine ?

is he going to say that , because i did not believe in him, i willl be judged adversely, even though i lived by the precepts he is supposed to support ?.

all i can say is, if your god is like that, i refuse to worship or acknowledge him.. and i certainly do not want to get to know him.

mdb

Obviously. There are goats and there are sheep. I believe in the words of God.

277

What say you Christians ???

by wobble in

it seems to me that most, if not all christians are really hung up on sin and redemption from sin and how naturally evil we all are.. my question, and observation is this : i had nothing to do with whatever you say adam and eve did wrong, i have always, throughout my life, treated whoever i came into contact with compassion, respect and love.. i have lived by the golden rule.. not many people, hand on heart, can say that, i can.. so, is your god going to judge me for the "sin" of some mythical forebears of mine ?

is he going to say that , because i did not believe in him, i willl be judged adversely, even though i lived by the precepts he is supposed to support ?.

all i can say is, if your god is like that, i refuse to worship or acknowledge him.. and i certainly do not want to get to know him.

mdb

"Essentually you are born already in debt to the church.. I mean "god"." That's not biblical. Jesus said that we need to be like children.

No, Jesus said we need to have the "faith" of a little child, not "be like children". The Scriptures also say we are to put childish ways behind us as we grow and mature. You're still born into sin. Read the Scriptures (and I don't mean the NWT).

Thanks for all the comments, and you all seem to have a clear understanding of the biblical view of sin and judgement.

But how well do you guys know your God ?

In the O.P I pointed out that I do not believe in God. So my question was, if He did exist, on what basis would he judge me ?

If He is "Love" as John says in his letter, and if He is Just, as claimed in the Bible, I can only conclude that I have nothing to fear, He will judge me as being worthy of the "reward", because I lived according to my conscience.

Even though I did not believe in His existence.

If He is going to judge me adversely when I see no evidence for His existence that he has provided, then as I said:

"He does not come up to my standards"

You live according to your consience? And if your conscience is seared? You don't believe in Him and have therefore denied God, your maker. You are without excuse and He has said that all creation proves His is. You think your life is generally good, but if you transgress in ONE commandment and God, being a just Judge, does not punish the guilty then He is no longer just. God is loving and that is why He gave of Himself and died in your place - to save you from that judgement. It's a free gift (except that it cost Jesus His life). How can you say He is not loving because He punishes the unjust? The righteous will live by faith in Jesus and those who deny Jesus have called God a liar.

God will judge you by the same standard as those who do believe in Him. Your unbelief doesn't change that and you will still stand before Him and your unbelief will not deliver you from His righteous judgement. In fact, just believing in God means nothing. Even the devils believe and tremble. It's faith in Jesus and the saving work He did on the cross that saves you.

277

What say you Christians ???

by wobble in

it seems to me that most, if not all christians are really hung up on sin and redemption from sin and how naturally evil we all are.. my question, and observation is this : i had nothing to do with whatever you say adam and eve did wrong, i have always, throughout my life, treated whoever i came into contact with compassion, respect and love.. i have lived by the golden rule.. not many people, hand on heart, can say that, i can.. so, is your god going to judge me for the "sin" of some mythical forebears of mine ?

is he going to say that , because i did not believe in him, i willl be judged adversely, even though i lived by the precepts he is supposed to support ?.

all i can say is, if your god is like that, i refuse to worship or acknowledge him.. and i certainly do not want to get to know him.

mdb

Actually, Adam's sin was imputed to all so we are all guilty. Yes, it does matter. We are born sinners and I have a son to proove it and my parents have me to proove it. Right from the start we deceive, manipulate, disobey, rob, etc.. Because of one man's sin, death entered the world and by the man Jesus Christ there is life through Him. Regardless of Adam's sin, you're not perfect and therefore, YOU need a Savior just as Adam needed a Savior. I'm sure your lifetime of sins has piled high enough that you don't need Adam's to condemn you. I've got enough of my own too. I'm sure glad God provided a way for my unrighteous soul to be saved. It sound like you're trying to "gain your way" by counting your good deeds. They're like filthy rags because if you've sinned only once, you've broken the commandment of the righteous Judge and you are blemished. Live by the law and I'll enter into His rest and live by faith through Jesus Christ.

Is beer really that important to you? Really wobble?

75

Ok have you ever been asked this question in regards to Isaiah 43:10 ?

by StoneWall in

how could god have always existed since it plainly says near the end of that verse before me there was no god formed?.

here is the quote from the nwt and i also looked it up on numerous other translations and they all used the word before.. .

isaiah 43:10. you are my witnesses, is the utterance of jehovah, even my servant whom i have chosen, in order that you may.

mdb

RubaDub,

Nice profile name. I like it.

75

Ok have you ever been asked this question in regards to Isaiah 43:10 ?

by StoneWall in

how could god have always existed since it plainly says near the end of that verse before me there was no god formed?.

here is the quote from the nwt and i also looked it up on numerous other translations and they all used the word before.. .

isaiah 43:10. you are my witnesses, is the utterance of jehovah, even my servant whom i have chosen, in order that you may.

mdb

as a Google search will attest.

Is Google now judge, revealer of truth and a witness? A Google search also brings up falsehood, error and profanity.

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

mdb

Jesus was directly quoting hebrew scriptures! At the time of him saying it greek scriptures didn't even exist and YHWH was in all the hebrew scrolls they used so he would have said YHWH and meant it.

YHWH is not used in the original NT scriptures and your point is based on assumptions that Jesus said something that you weren't there to hear and that was not written down as such. The word for "Lord" in the passage you referenced is still "Kyrios" (as it is in all places that the WTS replaces "Lord" with YHWH) and you cannot presume Jesus said anything else. That would never hold up in a court of law... "Oh, but I'm pretty sure that He would have said it that way. I know it doesn't say that, but it only makes sense to me."

This thread has gone to the birds. I'm done here... and no, you by no means won anything here Reniaa. These conversations are just going in circles. Until you can get your nose out of those Awake! and Watchtower publications and take the time to solely read the Scriptures without any mind-controling distractions, you'll never see their error.

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

mdb

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord(YHWH) your God, and serve him only.' "

"...Worship the Lord" (Kyrois G2962). The original word in the Greek is not YHWH in this verse. Another example of the HWT translation attempting to change scripture to align with their doctrines.

I am well aquainted with the trinitarian statement of making Jesus Greater in glory than God, equal in nature to God , lower in position to God but it is just unbiblical rhetoric and thus meaningless as well as being a plateful of oxymorons.

They don't believe Jesus is greater in glory and His position was lower while He, as a man, humbled Himself. Jeus said He was going to be lifted up and would again have to glory He had before (John 17:5). You have a poor understanding.

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

mdb

They diminish Jesus by putting Jehovah in these roles.

Technically, they're the same person (Jesus is YHWH), but because they don't see that I see your point. The Son definitely has a specific role which should not be diminished or given to the Father (not that it shouldn't be given to God). They also should never have put YHWH into the NT because the name is not Greek (it's Hebrew) and is never found in any of the original manuscripts (Lord = Kyrios). A very poorly taken liberty to support unbiblical doctrines.

"Kyrios" (or "Lord") is replaced with Jehovah in the NWT in many places concerning God the Father, but not consistently. Otherwise, passages like Romans 6:11 would say, "... Jesus Christ our Jehovah (Kyrios)." That just wouldn't do for the WTS.

Mdb..You can`t prove there is a God.. I can`t prove there is`nt a God.

God has proved His existence through His creation. There is ZERO possibility that the balance of life and this universe came into being without a powerful, all-knowing creator. Even the best of scientists acknowledge that. For example, they are finding that even the simplest cells (or so they used to think were simple prior to microboilogy) are actually very complex. It really is impossible for there not to be a God and if that's true, we all might want to find out what it is He wants and how we should live. Even your conscience tells you when you do something wrong. Why? Who put that there and who made absolute truth that we all know good from evil? I can't make you believe anything, but I can tell you what I know is true.

My point? You say you're not sure if God exists and I'm just telling you He does.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread go off in so many directions.

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

mdb

1 Samuel 16:7 is useful to remember in cases such as these. Hebrews 4:12-13 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17 also apply in discussions such as this.

Great passages!

There is no Jehovah..There may be a God.....But..There is no Jehovah.

Couldn't be more wrong (YHWH is God), but you like all the rest of mankind are entitled to your opinion. One day we'll all find out won't we? Theoretically, if you're wrong and hell is the place for you because you denied your maker, you've got a big problem. Do you want to take a chance like that?

That's a huge risk to take and a choice you'll never be able to change once this life is over (kind of like jumping off a 500ft cliff - no going back). All creation testifies there is a God so man is without an excuse. What excuse are you going to give the Lord when you stand before Him and He says, "Here I am, now you believe. Give Me an account for your life"?

I say this because you claim that there MAY BE a God. I'd make certain of what you believe here because you're playing with eternity. If God doesn't exist then what's the point of life? Really.

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

mdb

come back to me when you have some real faults.

Contradictions in Watchtower Literature

The watchtower says it is God's only true organization: "Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book," (The Watchtower; July 1, 1973, page 402.).

It claims to speak for God, yet it has produced numerous contradictory statements. Therefore, it is not God's organization.

Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the Watchtower Organization or Charles Taze Russell?

Watchtower Organization is Faithful and Discreet Slave:

"Jesus foretold that among his people there would be a "faithful and discreet slave" class who would be providing the spiritual food to God's family of devoted servants on earth, acting as his channel of communication and overseeing the carrying out of the Kingdom interests world wide. (Matt. 24:45-47) These anointed overseers serve as though being guided in their activities by the right hand of Christ." (Watchtower 1/15/1969, pages 51).

Russell is Faithful and Discreet Slave:

"Thousands of the readers of Pastor Russell's writings believe that he filled the office of 'that faithful and wise servant,' and that his great work was giving to the household of faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title, but he admitted as much in private conversation," Watchtower 12/1/1916, page. 357.

Watchtower Denies Russell ever claimed to be Faithful and Discreet Slave:

"From this it is clearly seen that the editor and publisher of Zion's Watch Tower disavowed any claim to being individually, in his person, that "faithful and wise servant." He never did claim to be such. (God's Kingdom of a thousand years has approached, 1973, p.346).

Watchtower claims to be only organization to find scriptural guidance, yet condemns the Vatican for doing the same thing.

Watchtower is only organization able to interpret the Bible:

"We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave' organization." (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981.)

Vatican is only organization able to interpret the Bible:

"The Vatican belittles Bible study by claiming it is the only organization authorized and qualified to interpret the Bible." (The Watchtower, 7/1/1943, p. 201.)

Is Jesus supposed to be worshipped or not?

Yes, Jesus is supposed to be worshipped:

"Question: The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer: Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so...It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father, and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." (The Watchtower, 7/15/1898, page 216.)

New Heavens and a New Earth, on pages 27-28, published in 1953, "For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'? And again: 'I shall be a Father to him, and he will be a Son to me'? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him.'"

No, Jesus is not supposed to be worshipped:

"He taught men, not to worship him, but to worship Jehovah his Father ... "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (Make Sure of All Things p. 283)

"What I learned was so different from what I had heard at the "Christian" school I had attended. Jehovah's Witnesses do not worship Jesus. Rather, they worship Almighty God, the One that Jesus himself worshipped." (Awake, 12/22/87, page 22.).

The sower in the Matt. 13 parable is Satan or Jesus?

The sower of the mustard seed is Satan :

“Today it is big enough to hold them all. In the parable, the "man" that sowed the mustard grain pictures the "wicked one," Satan the Devil. (Man's Salvation Out Of World Distress, 1975, p. 208).

The sower of the mustard seed is Jesus :

"Hence that apostate generation suffered national calamity in 70 C.E. So, now, does anyone ask the question, How could Jesus as the Sower of the parable plant the symbolic mustard grain and yet have it become a tree of a foreign kind, the corrupt counterfeit called Christendom? The experience of Jehovah God with the ancient nation of Israel gives the divine answer to such a questioner!" (Watchtower, 10/1/1975, p. 600).

Armageddon will be in 1914 or 1941 ?

Armageddon will be in 1914

"...the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 18789, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time is at Hand, 1889. - Emphasis added).

Armageddon will be in 1941

"Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." (The Watchtower, 9/15/41, page 288.)

Armageddon will be in 1914 or 1915 ?

Armageddon is in 1915

"...the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 18789, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time is at Hand, 1881. - Emphasis added - Date was changed to 1914 in a later edition).

Armageddon is in 1914

"...the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 18789, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914, with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time is at Hand, 1889. - Emphasis added).

I have a lot more of these "faults" if this isn't enough. Let me ask you JW's a question through a scenario:

Let's say the WTS today tells you that they have the truth in a matter of doctrine. It's publish by the Watchtower and made know to be the truth - given by those from Bethel with their "stamp of approval". The doctrine concerns your salvation in some way such as: the worship of Jesus, His person, who God is, or maybe regarding salvation through works (working it out or purely by grace alone), baptism of the Holy Spirit, the 144000 and Paradise Earth, etc

Three years from now you happen to have heart failure and die. Shortly after your passing, the WTS realizes that what they've been teaching all these year wasn't actually correct (which happens to occur on occassion) and that it is in something quite significant. Embarrassed, they reveal this new truth and attempt to soften the blow by claiming "new light". The problem is that all those up until that time who had "fallen asleep" had done so believing falsely a doctrine that directly affected their eternal state.

How do you live day-to-day with such uncertainty that the organization you call God's mouthpiece on earth (the "faithful and descreet slave") is actually telling you the truth when "new light" continually surfaces? Maybe all you believe is a lie and new light is just around the corner? Maybe it won't be revealed until after you die and it's too late for you. I thank my God and Savior that my salvation is certain and that I can actually live in peace.