Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Following on from a post of Sacolton's on a recent thread. I hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.

    Was Jesus our God? Consider these two scriptures:

    Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    Spirit returns to who?

    Stephen cries out to who?

    The questions i have on this is to do with the context of Acts 7:59. Examining Acts 7:55-60 (NIV),

    55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

    59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Verse 55 states that Stephen could see Jesus 'standing at the right hand of God', which surely contradicts the proposition Stephen saw Jesus as God? This confirmed in verse 56. The NIV translation here also shows that stephen in V59 called out to both God and Jesus.

    So my question, not just to Sacolton, but to those who believe Jesus is God, is how do you reconcile these surrounding scriptures?

    With reference to Ecclesiastes 12:7, v1 states,

    1 Remember your Creator
    in the days of your youth,
    before the days of trouble come
    and the years approach when you will say,
    "I find no pleasure in them"-

    The context of this scripture to me shows that v7 was refering to 'your Creator'. Now a JW would believe that Jesus was with God at creation according to Colossians 1, but placing of the word 'other' in that chapter does give a whole new meaning. But with regards to v1, it seems to me that v7 is refering to the Creator, God, Yahweh, Jehovah, YHWH, call him what you will.

    My personal view is that these two scriptures do not show that Jesus is God, but that is my personal view which is not rigid (one thing i've learned post JW is not to set your beliefs in stone). So my questions is to those here who believe Jesus is God is why do you believe this? Do you believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God? Or do you see him as divine because he was sent from God or a part of God?

    Paul

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Most (self-described) Christians that I've personally spoken with believe that "God" is Three Persons.

    Jesus is one of them: [God the] Son.

    -LWT

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    QUite simply, the term God is speaking of the Father, while Jesus himself is also God in nature. I am a bit pressed for time at this moment to write much more on this. But in a nutshel, it is agreed they are two separate individuals. The oneness is in their operation. They share the same divine nature.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I think the issue arises when we compare OT with the NT and forget that, with the new convenant, many of the things that were God's "responsibility" became Jesus's.

    As the full embodiment of all of God's qualities, including his divinity, Jesus MAY be confused as God, but he is NOT God, he is the Son of God whome God has given all the POWER and AUTHORITY of God.

    Stephen knew this, if he had been stoned BEFORE the coming of Jesus he would have cried out to God, Jesus himself cried out to his father on the Cross, "to thee I comit my spirit", but Stephen knew that, with the New Covenant, that Jesus is the One to pray to, to commit to.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    First of all, due to its dodgy beginning, I don't subscribe to the Trinity. I believe the Holy Spirit is personable only in the fact that It reflects the personality of God - the Father and the Son.

    I do believe Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the YHWH of the Old Testament, the One who became human, suffered, and died.

    I struggled with this for years, and the Scripture below is the clincher for me.

    From The Message Bible:

    John 8:58 "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything."

    The WT saw fit to mistranslate this to suit their own nefarious purpose of clouding His true Identity.

    Sylvia

  • undercover
    undercover
    First of all, due to its dodgy beginning, I don't subscribe to the Trinity.

    The Trinity has a 'dodgy' beginning but Jesus doesn't? A perfect man born of a virgin birth? That's pretty 'dodgy' in it's own right...

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    The Trinity has a 'dodgy' beginning but Jesus doesn't?

    There was no fighting in the streets over the birth of Jesus.

    A perfect man born of a virgin birth?

    Yes, indeed. Could you have come up with a better solution?

    That's pretty 'dodgy' in it's own right...

    Only to those too proud to believe it.

    Sylvia

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Jesus's birth is scripture, his title as Son of God is scriptural.

    The Trinity is an interpretation.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    Here is a good link on the matter: http://www.tektonics.org/qt/skepticsandjesus.html

    Here are more essays on the topic: http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaimshub.html

  • Mall Cop
    Mall Cop

    Without your own personal experience, which cannot be questioned because it is personal, all one has to go by is a book.

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