Though I give the glory to God since only he can change the heart, I do realize that he spoke through individuals here to cause me to look further into the word. I do thank you for this.
Posts by mdb
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29a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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29
a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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mdb
I suggested you look at the grammar of vs 24 and notice the similar construction. The "and" (vs 6 "and his redeemer" vs 24 "and your former") does not imply 2 persons but a second title.
peacefulpete (and all who have commented or viewed this thread),
Through prayer and study last night, the Lord showed me my error in regard to His word; specifically, Isaiah 44:6 and the use of which I used it. I became over zealous and with a proud heart spoke not by the Spirit, but by my own tongue. Of this I repent and hope that the posted topic does not lead any to interpret this verse the way that I did through my own eyes (not that the truth about Christ wasn't spoken, but the use of this passage in proving that doctrine was in error). It is evident that the word "his" in the phrase "and his Redeemer" is speaking of Israel, not the Lord. In other words, "the Lord, Israel's King and Redeemer says...". A crucial verse the Lord used in showing me what was meant by "and his Redeemer" was Isaiah 45:11. "...Holy One of Israel, and his Maker..." I trust that others will not use this passage and misunderstand it's meaning the way I did. In humility, I hope you take my apology and will not disregard other posts I have made on the basis of my error here. May God be lifted high and, in humility his servant brought low.
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29
a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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mdb
mdb take a look at vs 24.
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
Isaiah 44:24God is the Redeemer: Isaiah 44:24; 48:17; 49:26; 63:16The Lord also says in Isaiah 44:24 that it is He who makes all things.
Jesus also made all things: Jn 1:3,14; Rom 11:36; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:15-17; Heb 1:8-10 (Ps 102:24-27); 2:10; Rev 4:11
I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.
Psalm 102:24-27But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”
Heb 1:8-12You fail to see the OT reference to the Messiah. Or is it that you choose not to see it (whether it be in the book of Isaiah or some other context)? I would presume that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is yhwh and will try to explain any reference to His being yhwh away in order that your beliefs would not be proved wrong. Believe and be saved.
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29
a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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mdb
simply unwarrented and anachronistic
One other comment,
Indicating the fact that the Son was existent in the OT, is not anachronistic. Even a JW will admit that the Son was "created first" (though He was not created, but always has been). His appearing in the OT is well within historical, or chronological order.
For those who believe Jesus Christ is a created being, if this is so, then I suppose there was a time when The Father was not the Father being that He was without a Son.
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29
a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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mdb
peachfulpete,
Look at the original text, not the "translations" (you'll have to excuse the ?? symbols. I can't seem to get the correct font for the below text to display correctly).
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I the first, and I the last; and beside me no God
?amar yhwh melek yis??ra?e¯l g??ûlîm yhwh s?aba? ri?s?own ri?s?own ?ah?a?rown ?ah?a?rown bal?a?dê ?e?lohîm ?e?lohîm
Determine for yourself which is right. I believe in the above rendering since it also aligns with other Scriptures (as I mentioned in my original post).
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a look to Isaiah.
by mdb inthus says the lord [yhwh], the king of israel,.
and his redeemer, the lord [yhwh] of hosts:.
besides me there is no god.. isaiah 44:6. how many persons are speaking in isaiah 44:6?
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mdb
“Thus says the Lord [yhwh], the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord [yhwh] of hosts:
'I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.Isaiah 44:6
How many persons are speaking in Isaiah 44:6? 2 distinct persons: yhwh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, yhwh of hosts.
Jesus is his Redeemer:
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:13,14Jesus is the First and the Last:
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Rev 1:17,18In Isaiah 44:6, the Lord and the Lord both say, ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.’
Jesus Christ is yhwh, Jehovah. -
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no one snatched out of who's hand?
by mdb injesus answered them, i told you, and you do not believe.
the works that i do in my fathers name, they bear witness of me.
but you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as i said to you.
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mdb
He is of godly status above all creation but still God is his head.
I posted this recently. Maybe you didn't read it or it's possible you read it with your mind already made up.
Read the account in Gen 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
No one can see God's face and live. (Ex 33:20)
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
If this is so, who was this "Almighty God" that appeared to Abraham. There is only one Almighty God, that is YHWH (Jehovah).
I agree with you on this point: God the Father is the head, and Christ the head of man, and man the head of woman. That is Scriptural, but Christ is far more than of having "godly status". He is divine.
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no one snatched out of who's hand?
by mdb injesus answered them, i told you, and you do not believe.
the works that i do in my fathers name, they bear witness of me.
but you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep, as i said to you.
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mdb
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (John 10:25-30)
Those who are saved are in who’s grip: Jesus or the Father? In verse 30, Jesus says that He and the Father are one. Have you ever contemplated the two previous verses as to who’s hand we are securely in? Jesus is claiming His deity here.
While we're at it, who's Spirit dwells in us who believe?
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. ( Rom 8:9-11)
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need some help plz!
by needsomehelpwiththis1 inhi everyone i am doing a reaerch report on jehovahs witness and i am a bit stuck on some things.
if you guys could help me it would be much appreciated.. .
1. religiouos rituals and customs.. 2.books and writings used by the religion.. 3. countries the religion is practiced in.. 4. what happens after death(belief).
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mdb
Nice smilely face.
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Can I pick your brain?
by nerofiddle inim looking for your help with an issue.
although im agnostic and not a bible believer, im currently having regular visits/discussions with a couple of jw elders.
im fully aware of the jw doctrine that christ is a created being and im familiar with scriptural texts and the reasoning they use in support of that claim.
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mdb
The elders will point you to Colossians 1:16
COL 1:16 (Heb 1:2) Jesus created all things“…created through (Greek: dia) Him…”
The JW’s claim this is proof that Christ played a “second-hand” role in the creation since God created the world “through” Him.
The problem is that the same Greek word is used of the world coming into being "through" (dia) God.
Rom 11:36