Posts by mdb

108

Does the Rainbow Covenant Disprove the Flood?

by Severus in

the story goes that god provided the rainbow as a symbol of his promise to never again destroy the world by flood.. noah and his family saw the rainbow after they left the ark.

after the waters had receeded.

after it had stopped raining for months.... yet a rainbow is simply sunlight spread out into its spectrum of colors and diverted to the eye of the observer by water droplets.

mdb

Spectrum,

Assuming they are accurate.

?

25

Who do you want to meet?

by greendawn in

who would you most like to meet and what would you tell them?

count even dead people by supposing that they are still alive.

i would like to meet the great swiss psychologist gustav jung to ask him questions about symbolism and the unconscious mind.

I'm surprised nobody wants to meet Jesus Christ. Even if you don't believe Him, He is and always will be the most influential, life-changing man that has even walked the earth. I wonder what He looked like in the flesh? The bible says He was of no reputation and that no man should be attracked to Him by physical appearances. That's who I long to meet... my Lord.

Moses, Isaiah, Abraham, King David, Solomon, Adam & Eve, the 12 disciples, Paul... they'd be a pleasure to meet as well, but one day I will.

108

Does the Rainbow Covenant Disprove the Flood?

by Severus in

the story goes that god provided the rainbow as a symbol of his promise to never again destroy the world by flood.. noah and his family saw the rainbow after they left the ark.

after the waters had receeded.

after it had stopped raining for months.... yet a rainbow is simply sunlight spread out into its spectrum of colors and diverted to the eye of the observer by water droplets.

mdb

I don't understand the reason for this thread. How does the a rainbow disprove the flood? What evidence do you have or what is your arguement for this? You explain how light is divided through water droplets and then present some quotations about the flood and the rainbow, but I fail to see a disproving of it. Sorry.

Yes, atmospheric conditions were different before the flood. It had never rained. The ground was watered by springs below the earth and by the morning dew. There would never have been the amount of water in the air required to produce a prism effect of the sun's light, yet I still don't see how a rainbow, a sign given by God that He would never destroy the earth by flood again, disproves anything.

20

Need some good reasoning points

by mavie in

i need to try and get my wife to examine her beliefs.

i hope to do this by getting her to think on her own.

i've already tryed doctrinal issues with no success.

mdb

The WTBTS has told your spouse they are more than welcome to put their religion under the magifying glass. This was posted on another thread:

Watchtower May 1 1958 p.261 Is Your Religion the Right One?

“It is important, then, that you "keep testing whether you are in the faith," as Paul declared. Keep checking to see whether the things you believe are in keeping with God's Word. But the question is, Are you willing to put your religion through such a test? There is nothing to fear, because if you have the right religion you can only be reassured by the examination. And if what you believe is not in keeping with the Bible, then you should welcome the truth, because it leads to light and life. - Isa 8:20, Dy; 2 Cor 13:5”

Maybe it was posted here already... I didn't read everything.

11

How a Baptist minister was responsible for strengthening me in Mormonism

by Qcmbr in

i've been mulling over noggin's story and how i experienced the same scenarios on my mission and i wanted to share the flip side to that story - the one where i was not deconverted at all.

the curent religious crisis in my own life is also at a mature enough point to share some parts.

please note i want to use ths cathartically so excuse my dogmatism - i'm not preaching.

mdb

The Mormon doctrines contradict the scriptures. I've talked to Mormons who do not want to discuss (or "argue") with me doctrine. Other than doctrine, what else is there to discuss? Jesus said, "How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matt 16:11,12). And in 1 Tim 4:16 it says, "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." Apparently doctrine is very important. If the Mormon church does not have the true doctrine, but "the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadduceed", then the Mormon church does not have the truth. There are a lot of errors in their doctrine, but let's look at one.

Who is God?

According to Mormon doctrine:

God in general: One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world, who's name is Elohim, and who created the earth. He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130: 22-23)

Elohim: The name of God the Father who lives on the planet Kolob (Pearl of Great Price – Book of Abraham 3:1-17).

Yahweh: The name of Jesus in the Old Testament.

Jesus: Literal offspring of God the Father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth.

** Note: the word elohim in the Hebrew language is a general word for god. It is the plural form of el. Elohim occurs 2606 times in the Old Testament Scriptures and in many instances is used in direct reference to yhwh.

Let’s take an example from the Scriptures and see how this works out.

In Hosea 12:2-5, God [elohim] is equated to the Angel. It is said that Jacob found Him in Bethel and that in Bethel “He spoke to us.” The Angel, who is said to be the elohim Jacob struggled with, is called the Lord God of hosts. If elohim is the Father and yhwh is Jesus, how does the phrase “the Lord God of hosts” make logical sense ( the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts [sobeh] )? The only way it makes any sense is to say that the Lord [yhwh] (who is Jesus) is God [elohim] and is the Lord of hosts. The passage then says that the Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.

The account of Jacob finding God in Bethel is found in Gen 31:11-16 and it is the Angel of God who spoke to Jacob in a dream. What did the Angel say? “I am the God [elohim] of Bethel. Then, concerning what the Angel of God spoke to Jacob, Rachel and Leah answered and said, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”

“The Lord [yhwh] also brings a charge against Judah,
And will punish Jacob according to his ways;
According to his deeds He will recompense him.
He took his brother by the heel in the womb,
And in his strength he struggled with God [elohim].
Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;
He wept, and sought favor from Him.
He found Him in Bethel,
And there He spoke to us—
That is, the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts.
The Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.
~Hosea 12:2-5

Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God [elohim] of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”
Then Rachel and Leah answered and said to him, “Is there still any portion or inheritance for us in our father’s house? Are we not considered strangers by him? For he has sold us, and also completely consumed our money. For all these riches which God [elohim] has taken from our father are really ours and our children’s; now then, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”
~Gen 31:11-16

Who is this Angel of God? The Angel of God spoke to Jacob, but it also says that God [elohim] is the One who spoke to Jacob and in the book of Hosea, it too says that the Lord God of hosts is the One who spoke. The Angel of God is the pre-incarnate Christ – who is God, the Lord God of hosts. Jacob physically wrestled with Him (“…struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel”) and was blessed by him. Later, Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” The God that Jacob wrestled with, talked with, and saw face to face was yhwh and it was also the God [elohim] of Israel. In Exodus 33:20 it says concerning God , “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Yhwh is the name of God and is given to both Jesus and the Father throughout the Scriptures. A study in the Scriptures will prove this. Jacob had seen face to face the Angel of God (the Son) – the person of God that man can see without dying. Isaiah also saw His glory and his life was spared (Isaiah 6:1-5 ref.: Jn 12:41).

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
~Gen 32:24-30

The truth about God? Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word for god (el). Yhwh is one of the names given to God. He is also called the Mighty God, Almighty God, Lord of hosts, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Redeemer, Savior, I AM WHO I AM, among others. Jesus is the blessed eternal God, Savior, Redeemer, Lord of Lords, Emmanuel. He is the Son of Man, the Son of God, my Lord and my God – the only true God, not one of countless gods, not created but eternal as the Scriptures say.

God [elohim] said there are no other gods beside Him. He knows not one. If Jesus attained godhood, wouldn’t even his Father know that he was “a” god? Is not the Father all knowing?

6

the Lord's temple.

by mdb in

the lords temple

behold, i send my messenger,.

and he will prepare the way before me.. and the lord [adonia], whom you seek,.

mdb

BlessedStar,

Thanks for the translation. For all I knew, he was sending me a love letter.

Mr. Moon,

It's a shame you don't believe. Maybe some day the God of heaven will change your heart of stone and unbelief, that you might see the truth and live.

6

the Lord's temple.

by mdb in

the lords temple

behold, i send my messenger,.

and he will prepare the way before me.. and the lord [adonia], whom you seek,.

mdb

The Lord’s temple

“Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord [adonia], whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,"
Says the Lord [yhwh] of hosts.

~Malachi 3:1

Who is the messenger that was sent and who did the messenger prepare the way for? The messenger was John the Baptist and he prepared the way for Jesus Christ (Matt 11:10,11). Take a look at Isaiah 40:3. Again, who did John the Baptist prepare the way for? According to Isaiah, it was the Lord (yhwh, or Jehovah).

In Malachi 3:1, the temple is said to be the Lord’s temple and that the Lord whom they seek will suddenly come to it. The temple that Solomon built was for the God of Israel. In 2 Chr 2:4,5 it says, “Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the Lord [yhwh] my God [elohim], to dedicate it to Him.” There is no argument as to who’s temple was being built. It was for God. Let’s look at Malachi 3:1 one more time. According to this scripture, the temple is the temple of the Lord who would suddenly come to it once the messenger had prepared the way. If John was the messenger and he prepared the way for Jesus Christ, then the temple is Christ’s and He is yhwh, who the way was prepared for as prophesied in Isaiah 40:3.

Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the Lord [yhwh] my God [elohim], to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual showbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.
And the temple which I build will be great, for our God is greater than all gods.

~2 Chr 2:4,5

The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord [yhwh];
Make straight in the desert
A highway for our God.

~Isaiah 40:3

For this is he of whom it is written:
‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’
“Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

~Matt 11:10,11

There is no question here. This is for information only - discuss or comment if you wish.

41

John Chapter 1

by mavie in

i am wondering how those who believe jesus is the almighty lord god reconcile the following passages in chapter 1.

john 1:1 - ..."the word was god.

john 1:14 - "and the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

mdb

I know Jehovah is one God. I am not saying that Jesus is God, Jehovah

I know what you are saying. I am saying you are wrong - Jesus is God (yhwh).

of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. ~Rom 9:5

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” ~Jn 20:28,29

41

John Chapter 1

by mavie in

i am wondering how those who believe jesus is the almighty lord god reconcile the following passages in chapter 1.

john 1:1 - ..."the word was god.

john 1:14 - "and the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

mdb

mavie,

I think it is important to note that Jesus did not call himself equal to God here, the Jews did. I'm not aware of any passage where Jesus outrightly says, I am God.

The Scriptures do not directly say the Father is YHWH, but we know He is YHWH because He is called “God” and the “only true God” (John 6:27; 17:3)

Jesus is called “God” (John 1:1; 20:28), “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6; 10:21), “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13), and “Lord” (Romans 10:9; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11; John 20:28)

41

John Chapter 1

by mavie in

i am wondering how those who believe jesus is the almighty lord god reconcile the following passages in chapter 1.

john 1:1 - ..."the word was god.

john 1:14 - "and the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

mdb

lovelylil,

some like myself do not believe that Jesus is Jehovah but rather that according to John, when he says Jesus was God, he was saying in Nature, Jesus is divine like Jehovah. Not that he is God but he is in nature God.

Re-read the Scriptures.

Questions (some of many):

1. There is only one God. How may persons are present in the following?

Then the Lord [yhwh] rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord [yhwh] out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. ~Gen 19:24,25

2. Who's glory did Isaiah see?

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord [yhwh] sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord [yhwh] of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”
And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
So I said:
“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord [yhwh] of hosts.”
~ Isaiah 6:1-5

Talking of Jesus Christ, the Scriptures say, "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." ~ Jn 12:41

3. Who sends who?

For thus says the Lord [yhwh] of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the Lord [yhwh] of hosts has sent Me.
“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord [yhwh] of hosts has sent Me to you.
~ Zech 2:8-11