Posts by mdb

3

What Rick Ross reckons

by Keyboard22 in

what rick ross reckons about the ''watchtower case against mr. quotes',thought this would interest you.. thanks very interesting.

the watchtower probably would not have been able to sustain its claims, with the important exception of copyright regarding their published works.

this case is virtually identical to scientology litigation in the us and europe.

What I find amazing is that an organization that claims to be God's "faithful and discreet slave" would take anybody to court. Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek (Matt 5:38-42). Without a doubt, Jesus would never had taken anyone to court and certainly does not encourage His children to do it. In fact, it is better to be wronged (1 Cor 6:7) and we should try to settle out of court (Matt 5:25; 1 Cor 6:1)

Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?
1 Cor 6:7

The WTS actions go against the Scriptures (the words of God - who they claim they represent). Pretty poor example to "the flock". Hypocrites.

39

Parousia and invisibe presence

by Hellrider in

i`m discussing something with a jw.

i claim that the greek "parousia" doesn`t mean invisible presence, it simply means "presence".

isn`t that correct?

mdb

Jesus not resurrected in the flesh... What? They teach that?

HRider, your proof...

"Jesus was the first one to rise from the dead, and therefore he is spoken of as "the firstborn from the dead", "the firstfruits of them that slept." (Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20) This firstborn one from the dead was not raised out of the grave a human creature, but he was raised a spirit. Hence he was the firstfruits, too, of those that would have a heavenly resurrection. "He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."-1 Peter 3:18, Weymouth." Let God Be True, Watchtower 1946, p.272

20

need some help plz!

by needsomehelpwiththis1 in

hi everyone i am doing a reaerch report on jehovahs witness and i am a bit stuck on some things.

if you guys could help me it would be much appreciated.. .

1. religiouos rituals and customs.. 2.books and writings used by the religion.. 3. countries the religion is practiced in.. 4. what happens after death(belief).

mdb

Some books and writings the JW's use for their doctrinal studies:

Bible (mistranslated): New World Translation

Magazines: Awake and Watchtower

Books: Pay Attention To Yourselves And The Little Flock; The New World; The Kingdom Is At Hand; Theocratic Aid To Kingdom Publishers; The Truth Shall Make You Free; Let God Be True; Organized To Do Jehovah's Will; Aid To Bible Understanding; Equipped For Every Good Work; This Means Everlasting Life; What Has Religion Done For Mankind?; Make Sure Of All Things; New Heavens And A New Earth; You May Survive Armageddon; Qualified To Be Ministers; Your Will Be Done On Earth; From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained; Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose

Other: Preparing For Child Custody Cases

NOTE: The Watchtower Organization is a cult, not God's "chosen organization" as they claim. Through your research, do not be deceived!

34

I have a Question?

by Third Eye Open in

hi everyone, i am supposed to meet with an elder tonight.

i met several times with him before going over questions (my mother thinks he will restore my evil thinking).

anyway we have already gone over all of the basics (1874,1914,607 no answer for this one, the un and everything else).

mdb

I am still going to meetings because I have not built up the courage to just walk away (I have no friends on the outside and am just financially not able to live on my own if all came down to me leaving). At the longest it will be the summer/fall of 2007 when I leave because then I will have my degree and I can just get a job, move and never be seen again.

If you know the truth and want to follow the true Christ of the Bible, leave the WTS. Don't remain in the devil's lie when God has shown you the way (that would be to deny Him).

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:26

God takes care of His children and if you are his disciple, you are safe in His arms and shouldn't have any worry about leaving. You should rejoice in doing so.

Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? If you then are not able to do the least, why are you anxious for the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith? “And do not seek what you should eat or what you should drink, nor have an anxious mind. For all these things the nations of the world seek after, and your Father knows that you need these things. But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you. “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 12:22-34

9

"no man hath seen God at any time"

by mdb in

in the book let god be true (watchtower bible and tract society, 1946), p.86-87, section titled is there a trinity?, while attempting to disprove the trinity doctrine using 1 tim 3:16, it states:

the translation, word for word from the greek, reads, "who was manifested in flesh.

" the american standard uses "he who"; other versions use the word "which".

mdb

The use of Jn 1:18 is not a contradiction of the Scriptures. That's the point to be made here. The WTS attempts to use Jn 1:18 to indicate that if Christ was God, then it would be a contradiction since, man would have seen God.

The Son, who is God (not the person of the Father) has been seen of man as proved by His appearing to the forefathers in the OT and his incarnation as Jesus Christ (Emmanuel - God with us). The Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed the Father (the person of God who no man can see without dying) to us. The Lord is YHWH. He revealed Himself to Abraham as "Almighty God" in the book of Genesis and says in the NT that if we have seen the Son, we have seen the Father.

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jn 14:8,9

Jesus is God and the use of John 1:18 to refute the claim is weak.

9

"no man hath seen God at any time"

by mdb in

in the book let god be true (watchtower bible and tract society, 1946), p.86-87, section titled is there a trinity?, while attempting to disprove the trinity doctrine using 1 tim 3:16, it states:

the translation, word for word from the greek, reads, "who was manifested in flesh.

" the american standard uses "he who"; other versions use the word "which".

mdb

comparing Isaiah 6:5-10 with John 12:39-41

Well done.

Equally, there is the account of Jacob who physically wrestled with God and had his hip wrenched while they struggled.

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen 32:30)

9

"no man hath seen God at any time"

by mdb in

in the book let god be true (watchtower bible and tract society, 1946), p.86-87, section titled is there a trinity?, while attempting to disprove the trinity doctrine using 1 tim 3:16, it states:

the translation, word for word from the greek, reads, "who was manifested in flesh.

" the american standard uses "he who"; other versions use the word "which".

mdb

In the book Let God Be True (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1946), p.86-87, section titled “IS THERE A TRINITY?”, while attempting to disprove the trinity doctrine using 1 Tim 3:16, it states: The translation, word for word from the Greek, reads, "Who was manifested in flesh." The American Standard uses "He who"; other versions use the word "which". If this had been Almighty God incarnated, and which it would have to be if the "trinity" were true, then these words of John would be false: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18) Being that no man has seen God at any time, who appeared to Abram and revealed Himself as “Almighty God” in Gen 17:1? Abraham later recognized the Lord when He appeared to him again in Gen 18:1-3. Then, in Gen 19:24, “The Lord (YHWH) hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord (YHWH), from the heavens”.

21

The Logos and Theos in John 1:1

by stev in

title: an examination of canon liddon's bampton lectures on the divinity of our lord and saviour jesus christ.

author: [voysey, charles], 1828-1912.

making of america books

mdb

More contradictions and circular reasoning in mdb's post than a typical watchtower.

Prove it. I don't see any contradictions or circular reasoning in what I've posted. Give an example. If you don't like the statistic (99%), disregard the statement - maybe it's 85%. It doesn't really matter in this case and of course I can't prove that number is correct. Besides, it's not necessary. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Look them up. The Watchtower's translation is not consistent and goes against the context of the Scriptures as a whole. Being that God does not contradict Himself, and other passages indicate the Jesus Christ (the Word) is God, then the NWT is erroneous in translating John 1:1 as "...a god". The NWT translation supports polytheism (more than one god). Do you believe there is more than one true God? No JW will aknowledge it, but they must believe it unless they believe Jesus was a false god (which they also will not aknowledge to be correct, and rightfully so). Jesus is not a "mighty God" while the Father is the "Almighty God". What does that say? The Father is also called a "mighty God". Does that mean He is not "Almighty God"? Of course not.

21

NWT Hebrews 1:6 Bible change Revised 1970 and 1984 editions. Any others?

by hubert in

in the "journey home" series on ewtn, which jeff schwem was on a while back, jeff mentioned a bible change from one printing of the nwt to a later printing of it.

this interested me tremendously, since my j.w.

sister-in-law told me one day that "the nwt bible never changes".

mdb

HEB 1:6 Jesus worshiped (Jesus is NOT an angel)

The 1961 edition of the NWT translates the Greek word proskuneo as worship, but in the 1971 edition changes the translation to read obeisance (to honor, give homage).

If Jesus is a created being that should not be worshiped, then the Father sinned (which is impossible) by commanding the angels to worship a mere creature. If Jesus was an angel, then the angels were commanded to worship one of their own.

Worship is to God alone. (Ex 34:14; Matt 4:10)

**NOTE: read Rev 22:8,9 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (NWT) where proskuneo is used in the original Greek. An angel told John not to worship (proskuneo) him. This worship the angel refused is the same worship the Father commanded to be given to Jesus.

Unclean spirits bowed down to Jesus and addressed him as the “Son of God.”

The Son is not an angel.

**You might find the following quotations interresting as well...

1879 "His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."' (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879, bracketed comment in the original)

1880 "He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born king... He never reproved any for acts of worship offered to Himself... Had Christ not been more than man the same reason would have prevented Him from receiving worship." (Watchtower Reprints, 1, Oct., 1880, p. 144).

1898 "Question... Was he really worshipped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so... It was proper for our Lord to receive worship... " (Watchtower Reprints, 111, July 15, 1898, p. 2337).

1915 "As the special messenger of the Covenant, whom the Father had sanctified and sent into the world to redeem the world, and whom the Father honored in every manner, testifying, ‘This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased' - it was eminently proper that all who beheld his glory, as the glory of an Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, should reverence him, hear him, obey him, and worship him - do him homage - as the representative of the Father." (At-One-Ment Between God And Man, 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 134)

1945 "Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship him must also bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that organization, namely Christ Jesus, his co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." (Watchtower, Oct 15, 1945)

1945 "The purposes of this Society are:... public Christian worship of Almighty God and Jesus Christ; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship... " (Charter of the Watchtower Society of Pennsylvania, Article II, Feb 27, 1945 [the 1969 Yearbook quotes Article II of the Charter, "and for public Christian worship of Almighty God ..." leaving off the original requirement to worship Jesus])

1970 "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all

God's angels worship him' Hebrews 1:6." (New World Translation, 1950, 196 1, 1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to read, "do obeisance to" rather than "worship"])

"Question: The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer: Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so... It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father, and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." (The Watchtower, 7/15/1898, page 216.)

New Heavens and a New Earth, on pages 27-28, published in 1953 , "For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'? And again: 'I shall be a Father to him, and he will be a Son to me'? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him."'

21

The Logos and Theos in John 1:1

by stev in

title: an examination of canon liddon's bampton lectures on the divinity of our lord and saviour jesus christ.

author: [voysey, charles], 1828-1912.

making of america books

mdb

JOHN 1:1 “…the Word was with God (ho theos) and the Word was God (theos).”

99% of scholars who know Greek are in disagreement w/ the Watchtower translation of John 1:1.

The Word (Jesus) is God : John 20:28; Titus 2:13

Only one true God : John 17:3; Deut 32:39; Isaiah 43:10; 44:8; 45:5

There are not two Gods, but one true God.

The Greek word theos (God) w/o the definite article ho (the) is used in Luke 20:38 of Jehovah in the New Testament with the same Greek construction used of Jesus in John 1:1.

If Jesus was only divine in nature and not God, John would have used the word theios (divine, deity) and not theos (God). One must be consistent with their translation. The Watchtower is not consistent in the application of their rule in which they claim to translate John 1:1 as “…a God” (theos without the definite article ho) in the NWT.

Other scriptural examples of theos without the definite article ho, used of God (Jehovah) are: Matt 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; 2:40; John 1:6,12,13,18; 3:2,21; 9:16,33; Rom 1:7,17,18; 1 Cor 1:30; 15:10; Phil 2:11,13; Titus 1:1