Posts by careful

30

Is this the earliest WT reference to 1975?

by Splash in

i thought that the 1975 thing started in the mid to late 60's, but it seems the seeds were sown two decades earlier.is this the earliest reference to it?.

18 how many today are awake to the fact that the lord christ jesus, by his resurrection of the faithful bride members that slept in death, is taking his "bride" unto his father's house and the marriage of the lamb has begun' .... they do not say, 'it is a long time yet to the wind-up, and, according to the present understanding of bible chronology, six thousand years of human history will end first in the coming seventies and till then it is a long stretch to serve the lord continuously and undividedly.'.

... they keep their eye and heart on jehovah's kingdom, and not on the time clock.

careful

Thanks NN and blondie!

30

Is this the earliest WT reference to 1975?

by Splash in

i thought that the 1975 thing started in the mid to late 60's, but it seems the seeds were sown two decades earlier.is this the earliest reference to it?.

18 how many today are awake to the fact that the lord christ jesus, by his resurrection of the faithful bride members that slept in death, is taking his "bride" unto his father's house and the marriage of the lamb has begun' .... they do not say, 'it is a long time yet to the wind-up, and, according to the present understanding of bible chronology, six thousand years of human history will end first in the coming seventies and till then it is a long stretch to serve the lord continuously and undividedly.'.

... they keep their eye and heart on jehovah's kingdom, and not on the time clock.

careful

I remember finding this quotation in the 1944 WT back when I was active, young, and single years ago, back when I had time to do such research. In fact, I was researching the whole 1975 thing on my own. After I found this WT study article, I interviewed one old bro. in the congo who went back to before Rutherford's death. He was surprised that I asked him about it but got very happy, even excited, that I did. He said, "Yes, there were some who felt that the preaching work was suddenly not as vital then, since according to the 'new light' revealed at the time, the end could not have come for 30+ more years. That WT study article was to chastise them not to have such a wrong attitude."

It really caused me to pause and consider how this change came about and what it meant at the time. First, how it came about. The Judge had gradually rejected many of Russell's beliefs and teachings (Christmas, the cross, the importance of modern (earthly) Israel in prophecy, some of his chronologies like the jubilees cycles, etc.), but for some reason had held on to the 6000 years from Adam's creation idea (as ending the 1870s). Fred Franz, as Rutherford's main advisor, had evidently dissented from the Judge's feelings here, so when Rutherford died, Franz, with Knorr's approval of course, set to change some doctrine. One of these was this chronology. This is what led to that 1944 WT study article.

Second, more important is the role this doctrinal change played in WTS history. Stop and think about it. Some significant institutional projects were begun, ones that would take a long time to complete, or that showed some long term commitment. 1. Gilead School. 2. Translating the Bible afresh (the NWT). 3. The Theocratic Ministry School, that is, training thousands of people to handle witnessing at the door and conducting Bible studies on their own. All of these indicate that to Knorr and Franz, the end was not just immediately around the corner. They saw a 30+ year window of opportunity to do the preaching work. If you look at the publications carefully after Rutherford's death, you will not see the "Armageddon is any day now" drumbeat that one sees today, that is, until Fred Franz began doing it in the 1960s, in that book, Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God, that is generally viewed as having started all the 1975 hype. In fact, it goes back much further, to this change in chronology that is reflected in the WT article that Splash has put up.

Finally, the whole 1975 debacle takes on a new dimension. We have Fred Franz in the mid 1940s coming to believe that the end could not come for 30+ more years. As the time drew nearer and nearer for, in his mind, the earliest possible date for the big A to arrive, he become more convinced that it had to come then. I suspect that this was a major factor in his speculations that caused the whole thing. If you look carefully at his pronouncements back then, you'll see that he was still dabbling in that jubilees cycle thing again, though he never really took off with it like the 6000 years from Adam chronology.

What I am so amazed at is that no one has ever recognized this till Splash's discovery, not Ray Franz who is supposed to have lived all thru this, not Penton who is supposed to have done all this research on the 1975 debacle, not anyone else. It's been missed by everyone, except perhaps that one old bro. that I interviewed years ago. Nice work, Splash for bringing this to light!

56

One reason behind the slow steady decline of JWs

by AllTimeJeff in

hello first of all to those that remember me.

i'm doing well, 10 years since my missionary trip to cameroon.

i've met a couple of goals.

careful

Thanks ATJ for the post and thoughts. I remember your many worthwhile observations in the past. Your experience and insights are appreciated. Drop by with more any time!

5

Sorrry if a repeat

by careful in

thoughts?.

http://taze.co/2015/01/31/jw-org-idolatry/.

the quotation from the 1974 km is good..

careful

Thoughts?

http://taze.co/2015/01/31/jw-org-idolatry/

The quotation from the 1974 KM is good.

31

Sometimes I think Jehovah's Witnesses overuse the word "historic"

by slimboyfat in

at the beginning of the may broadcast stephen lett said this was a historic broadcast.

he explained that every member of the governing body had hosted a show and they were starting over again.

that was all the explanation he gave.

careful

Outlaw,

Now THAT is a cart! Maybe they'll get historic and start reverting the modern carts to the old historic model in your pic!

8

NEW LIGHT!!

by kairos in

**overlapping donations**.

yes.. that's a thing.

not new, of course.i just felt like shouting it from the housetop.. ( don't forget the worldwide work, friends... ).

careful

I'm sure they'd love overlapping donations! Wait a minute... isn't that what they've been doing? Hmmm... is this a planned subliminal thing? Teach them overlapping generations and hope it will go over into overlapping donations?

19

Funny grammar error in German Watchtower

by processor in

they seem to have laid off their proofreaders.

in the new 03/2016 study watchtower there is a picture description:a mature young person does not act like a friend of god at the kingdom hall but a friend of the world at school.

the german issue saysein reifer junger mensch verhalt sich im konigreichssaal nicht wie ein freund jehovas und in der schule wie ein freund der welt.

careful

You never translated "und" which means "and." That makes a difference here.

42

How Many JWs Really Believe Everything They Are Told?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i think that 80% of jws do not truly believe in what they are taught .

the vast majority stay in because of family, friends, ignorance and a lack of caring about any of the facts regarding the "truth".

many people are lazy.

careful

I don't know about 80%. That means only 20% do believe and I recall that more than 20% really WANT to believe that every utterance coming from the F&DS's mouth was from Jehovah himself. I think there are more than 20% among the many spinsters and widows, more than 20% among the pioneers, and certainly far more than 20% among the elders. I can recall countless times I saw bumbling elders not understanding how to govern locally, going to the CO or Service Department for advice, not understanding the reasons for the advice and so saying, "Well, I don't understand what's going on, but I know Jehovah deals with me thru his organization. I'll do whatever they say." Hmmm...

7

One possibility…?

by careful in

tornintwo's recent topic spurred me finally to post an idea i've been thinking about.

i don't see the gb as being financially greedy.

yes, they enjoy numerous perks like having their physical needs met by servants, jetting around the planet, living in a greater degree of comfort than fellow bethelites, getting frequent and sometimes expensive gifts from the r&f, etc.

careful

Tornintwo's recent topic spurred me finally to post an idea I've been thinking about. I don't see the GB as being financially greedy. Yes, they enjoy numerous perks like having their physical needs met by servants, jetting around the planet, living in a greater degree of comfort than fellow bethelites, getting frequent and sometimes expensive gifts from the R&F, etc. Tornintwo's comment that the GB members each work, likely hard in their own eyes, is real. While they run the religion like a corporate business, very problematic in many people's eyes (including mine), they do not act like the wealthy executives in major corporations with multiple homes, grossly flamboyant lifestyles, contacts with powerful politicians, etc.

I realize, on the other hand, that they are pretty dumb, like Vidquin put it in another post here "seven simpletons that have no clue" when it comes to theology or financial matters. Hence an idea that I've been throwing around. What if the GB made a major blunder in investing the millions they have at their disposal? That is, they lost millions in some bad venture that they thought, in their limited abilities, would yield a big return. Wouldn't their reaction in such a case be what we are witnessing? The desperation, the blundering attempts to hide their own stupid actions, the cover ups that they are so used to using that such maneuvers have become institutionalized practice?

So my request is this: does anyone here, possibly with contacts inside the secretive walls of bethel, have any info regarding this suspicion? If not, would anyone with such contacts make request and see if there's any substance to such a speculation?

Thanks in advance.

63

Why does the Watchtower leadership slap its own defenders in the face?

by slimboyfat in

take the case of rolf furuli.

i don't think there has been a specific thread on the hebrew verbs u-turn in the nwt, and how the society has responded to the work of perhaps their brightest and ablest defender in their history.

so here goes.. rolf furuli has defended jws on multiple fronts in many different settings, on issues ranging from chronology, mental health, doctrines, bible translation and the blood issue.

careful

SBF, I don't know what Furuli would say to your OP. I doubt if he would visit this website, unless he began to have doubts like so many here have. I do not know the man and I've never read his stuff (nor would I wish to). From what little secondhand info I've got on him, he seems like the typical JW apologists who filter all objective data thru their "the GB is God's sole mouthpiece" mindset. That will, of course, leave them unable to ever call the GB wrong about anything. Hence my earlier comment on this thread. I suppose they would have supported Miracle Wheat, the pyramids, Beth Sarim, the superior authorities of Rom. 13:1 being Jehovah and Jesus, organ transplants being cannibalism, blood fractions being unacceptable until they were OKed, etc. And they would have rationalized them all just like I stated Furuli likely did regarding his position on Hebrew verb meanings.

As for Forster and Wörnhard, here's what I've got on them. I learned of the former thru a member of this forum. I was surprised that he existed, but after looking over his website, I realized that, doctrinally speaking, he has stayed away from anything controversial that might get him into trouble with the org. One major question I have with Foster is that he teaches at a clearly religious college---what about Rev. 18:4? The latter is listed as a major elder who gave some sort of special talk that I saw years ago in a list of recorded talks that circulate so much in the Witness world. I think it said he was from the Italian bethel. He's also listed a s a consultant on Patrick Jamois's LinkedIin page, a guy who's clearly a Witness (https://ch.linkedin.com/in/patrick-jamois-74baa349). Then there are those links I put up in the earlier comment, ones which show he has genuine academic credentials. Like Foster, Wörnhard's research is on the church centuries after earliest Christianity, another nice, safe topic from the org's perspective.

If you know of anything of substance regarding Furuli's disagreements with the GB's views, I'd like to hear them. Is he an elder? He can't be too disloyal and be an elder. Do you know of any disagreement with WT theology or practice regarding Wörnhard? Wouldn't he too have had to have obtained his "worldly" education in violation of WTS policy? Or perhaps he was a convert and got his education prior to becoming a Witness?

Have you had dealings with Foster or are you just making your "very intelligent fellow" comment based on his website? I'm curious if he's an elder in his congo or whether his personal pursuits have prevented him from reaching that coveted position in the org.

Vidquin, wow, you are really living in wonderland! You might as well say you imagine how different it would have been if the GB all joined a coven and worshiped the devil directly! Seriously though, your 3 h's comment is thought provoking, as are SBF's notion on the Mormons. I've always had some trouble equating the Witnesses and the Mormons, but I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps one factor is that the LDS church does not have much problem with educated members disagreeing with their articles of faith, at least not like the WTS. The homosexual doctrine so much in the news lately is a minor exception that will probably not affect them much since the LDS R&F reject homosexuality on a big scale. It violates their marriage worship thing too greatly.