Posts by careful

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

careful

Thanks to all for your thoughts, especially to Richard Oliver who seems to have an inside track on the procedure. One question: the "consulting services" you refer to, is that some office at Bethel or what?

12

Who of us has ever thought, 'What's the point? I'm going to die anyway'

by Funchback in

when i truly believed the jws had the truth, i usually reverted back to 'what's the point?

i'm going to die anyway' as a way to justify for doing so-called bad things or not doing so-called good things in jw land.. i shouldn't be watching this r-rated movie.

(why stop?

careful

I knew a bro. whom I helped to baptism and beyond. He later left his wife for other women and was DFed. i called on him and he had the notion you voiced. "Well, I'm going to be destroyed at Armageddon. What's the point? At least I now know I won't be tormented in some hell."

19

Jeremiah 10:23 - "...It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

by HereIgo in

i have been accused recently of "trying to direct my own step" because of my questioning the org and refusing to come back to the "truth" for the past 6 years.

i personally still believe in god, i just doubt that he is behind the jw org, that's all.

why is that so hard for jw's to understand?

careful

There are a number of other scriptures that they like to pull out and apply to anyone doubting the sacred organization: "Are you leaning on your own understanding, brother?" (Prov. 3:5); "Are you becoming wise in your own eyes?" (Prov. 3:7, 26:12) "Are you running ahead of Jehovah?" (1 Sam. 15:23, 2 John 9) It becomes pointless to try and have a scriptural discussion with them because of their belief that whatever the current GB says comes from God and trumps everything else. No one else on the planet can speak for Jehovah. If you disagree with the org over anything—it does not matter what—then Satan has gotten a hold of you.

There really is no point in attempting to discuss anything with them. It's a waste of your, and ironically, their, time. They will not listen to whatever the issue is for you. The only issue for them is your loyalty to the org. Simpletons love such thinking.

There is that passage in Hebrews that discusses thinking ability, the "powers of discernment," in a positive way (5:14), but they would likely only apply that to the idea that all you have to do is discern the GB is God's sole mouthpiece, and there's no need to go beyond that—hardly the context of Hebrews chapter 5.

29

Will Governing Body stop preaching work?

by neat blue dog in

at this year's annual meeting (2016), david "mark" sanderson asks the audience the question, "are you determined to keep on preaching with us until we say the work is completed?

" to which they respond with applause.

do you think that stopping the preaching work will ever be a part of the gb's long range plan?

careful

NBD, I believe his first name is Douglas, not David. It helps to get the facts straight, especially when making a quotation that people then question, as is the case here.

Londo,

Is that an exact quote?
"we say"?
It used to be "Jehovah's says".

Right on. The wording, if the quotation is accurate, illustrates the great difference between GB one and GB two. The latter is much more self-promoting, the former more humble and in the background. I don't recall Fred Franz signing any NWT copies...

I think it also reflects their theology: they think that the end will come during their tenure at the helm, and that when the wild beast moves against religion, there will come a time when the preaching work will no longer be necessary. They, as God's spokesmen, will then inform the R&F that the preaching work is over. And then the end will come.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

careful

Several times on this forum posts have been made about the "Order of Special Full-time Servants" in the WTS and the document that must be signed by those entering it, Bethelites, COs, and so on. The reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group. Basically then, end of story.

However, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the Society has to be turned over to the Society. One post here (sorry, can't find the thread now) told about some missionaries or special pioneers who made some money by teaching English in countries where the preaching work is banned. All profits made in this way then had to be turned over to the Society per the terms of the Special Order document.

What about those full-timers who receive independent income while in the circuit work or at Bethels? Are those who collect retirement income or social security, or have some investment or other income required to turn that money over? Not all Bethelites are dirt-poor, especially among the older ones. Some brothers with families work full-time at a job for years, and when their kids grow up, they become pioneers and then enter the circuit work, living off the retirement program they paid into while working at their secular jobs. Others wind up "being called to Bethel." Does anyone have any reliable info on this matter of having to sacrifice their independent income? Has the GB become so money hungry that even this source has wound up being "collected"?

5

$345 million - Kushner purchases 85 Jay St

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

jared kushner closes on another dumbo heights property.

jared kushner has another jehovah’s witnesses site in his company’s development pocket.on tuesday, the former kushner companies (now called simply “kushner”), along with asher abehsera’s livwrk and the cim group, closed on a $345 million purchase of 85 jay st. in the same dumbo neighborhood as the jehovah’s witnesses’ watchtower real estate.bob knakal acted as a consultant to watchtower’s in-house group.now a parking lot, the full block can host an as-of-right 1.1-million- square-foot mixed-use development.“this site has tremendous upside, and we’re looking forward to developing a project that will further enhance the area and help strengthen connections between the dumbo heights campus and the waterfront,” said laurent morali, president of kushner..

careful

Thanks.

12

Why was corruption of scriptures not prevented?

by anointed1 in

many bracketed portions in the scriptures, influence of foreign myths and unscientific teachings … etc show that scriptures have been corrupted.

even when they are not corrupted, religious teachings have often no effect even on direct disciples (when jesus was teaching, his immediate disciples were thinking about who was going to be first in the organization—something that happened in all religions which led into their infighting and divisions).

at the same time there are many good people among materialists, why?

careful

For a theist, I do not see how meteors crashing into planets belittle anything about the Creator. Phenomena like meteors, black holes in space, erupting volcanoes, vicious and/or poisonous animals, destructive storms/tornadoes, and so on, are all part of the Creator's handiwork, correct? Ignoring such common phenomena or downplaying them is precisely the sort of thing that has historically turned off thinking people to belief in God. Before using such reasoning as the order in the natural world to argue for the existence (or even the benevolence) of God, should you not prepare an answer for the contrary data as well?

At least one person above has assumed you were once a Witness who left, like so many (though not all) here. I do not know your personal history, but if that assumption is so, and if you found out how corrupt the WT organization is, then why would you want to imitate the shallow reasoning that they display in arguing for divinity by some supposedly positive facets of creation while ignoring other facets of nature that do not fit in their/your model?

12

Why was corruption of scriptures not prevented?

by anointed1 in

many bracketed portions in the scriptures, influence of foreign myths and unscientific teachings … etc show that scriptures have been corrupted.

even when they are not corrupted, religious teachings have often no effect even on direct disciples (when jesus was teaching, his immediate disciples were thinking about who was going to be first in the organization—something that happened in all religions which led into their infighting and divisions).

at the same time there are many good people among materialists, why?

careful

I'm not sure how your post stays on the topic of your title—you seem to wander off quite a bit as the post goes along(?)—but as for your title, it is important that believers recognize the human element in the writing of scripture, something the WTS and other religious conservatives do not really do. Even if one wishes to view the content of the Bible as divine, the books themselves were written and preserved down through time by very fallible human beings. That is a weighty factor in the corruption you bring up in your title.

Your other points seem a bit "corrupt" themselves: when the meteor that crashed into what is now rural Arizona many years ago and destroyed the lives of countless pretty, fragrant plants, innocent "nice" animals, and perhaps humans, was that an example of that object of space "keeping to their orbits just like vehicles follow lane-discipline on a busy express highway (as though submitting themselves to some unseen authority)"? Examples of other natural phenomena behaving in unpleasant ways (lions brutally tearing apart deer or other "nice" prey, poisons of certain reptiles and insects slowly tormenting those infected with their toxins to death, erupting volcanos scorching all beings in their paths, naturally occurring toxic gases choking animals and humans, and so on) can also be cited. The natural world is full of such things. What sort of "unseen authority" do these things demonstrate?

BTW, I am a theist/believer, a deeply thinking one.

17

Is the watchtower preparing the rank and file here?

by Thisismein1972 in

http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/28736-that-most-beautiful-of-2015-videos-is-now-live/.

above is a link (if you can stomach it) from jwtalk.

have a look at the comments.

careful

A few thoughts:

1. Perhaps this phrase "The Storm" for Armageddon is based on Prov. 3:25 and the thought in Job 38:22-23?

2. One thing these WT videos have done is depict more graphically than ever before what the official line is on how Armageddon will come, and what the new order will look like. For example, the much discussed Bunker video shows what they think the end of this world will be like, even if just partially. Then the vid linked here helps us see how they think the world will be like afterward—a diet almost exclusively of fruit (VERY heavily doted on in the vid). Not only was merely one loaf of bread shown, but no veggies at all, and, of course, no meat. A friendly elephant and giraffe are there but no playful hyenas, Gila monsters, or wolverines! Black mambas, crocs, polar bears, bull sharks—are they all supposed to eat hay?

11

How long until some of the Biblical apocrypha will be inserted into the WT teachings?

by nonjwspouse in

i have read through some of these, though not in complete, but enough to see some of these writings could fit into the wt views, such as arian beliefs of jesus.

it would also help separate themselves quite a bit from "christiandom" and their bible.

the "new light" of books not accepted in the canon.

careful

Not quite sure what you mean by Apocrypha. Do you mean the books of the Septuagint that are not accepted in the canon by traditional Jews and Protestants, but are by Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches?

I remember a WT QFR back in the 50s or 60s that asked whether Jehovah had a hand in restoring the temple during the Maccabean revolt in the 160s BC (recorded in 1 and 2 Maccabees). Freddie Franz wrote the reply, clear from his strange writing style. What he said was that the temple had to be standing in order for the prophecies about Jesus to be fulfilled. I don't recall him citing or quoting any specific passages from 1 or 2 Macc., but it may be the closest the WT publications have come to utilizing the Apocrypha in any sort of "positive" way. I also remember reading in the WT publications, much later than the above QFR, some author putting down some of the elements in the book of Tobit as superstition. The context was a general condemnation of the Apocrypha as a whole.

You seem to think that there are some passages in the Apocrypha that the GB could use "to keep up the Organization and the $ flowing in." What part of the Apocrypha do you have in mind that would help them do this???