Posts by careful

8

Help needed finding an old WT article

by careful in

i no longer trust the search engine at the official jw website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so i'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?).

i think it was an article rather than in a book, but i can't be sure.

the article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.. it's important, i suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the gb decide is completely god-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the gb are viewed as infallible in practical terms.

careful

Many thanks to those who have responded so far.

SBF, I don't think that that's the ref because I remember FF went on at some length with that Romans passage, tying together the various notions there, in the vein "Who can find fault with the anointed because it's God who has declared them righteous?" I'll look over that 71 WT later. Nice to see you responding...

the fall guy, that ref to "Jehovah God ... views them as being perfect, without sin" is in tune with what I remember, but the art. (or book?) I'm thinking of went on at some length expounding the Romans passage and stating the same perfection thing in more detail, so your ref is not the main one. However, that such a statement could be said in 1974, probably indicates that the art./book I'm looking for predates 1974, so a special thanks for that.

blondie, yes, recently GB II has sort of changed their tune a bit, indirectly inferring that they could be wrong perhaps, but they have not really come out and said that. Instead they use that strange language about "whether these appear sound ... or not." And yes, FF's old view that I'm looking for is certainly shown to be false by Peter's sins. The validity of the org's thinking is not the issue on which I am focusing. We know that often has been shown to be wrong. I'm simply trying to reconstruct some dominant but—on the surface anyway—under-emphasized thinking that influenced decisions in WTS history, and I strongly suspect that one was this notion FF had about the anointed being "perfect, without sin" (according to the ref. that the fall guy has provided) due to Jehovah's having "declared them righteous." That Isaiah passage is the one that says "No weapon formed against you will succeed" etc., so it would tie in to the notion of them being "perfect" and unassailable, and again, it has a ref at its end to Jehovah declaring them righteous.

As for the Matt 18 passage, the Greek is a bit odd. It uses the rare future perfect tense and very few translators render it literally. I'll have to check, but FF may have played with his translations somewhat from earlier NWT renderings to later ones. If I recall correctly, and I can't check this right now, but Chas. B. Williams' NT translation is one of the few that renders the Greek literally there. It's significant as to the meaning. Anyway, FF may have used this passage too in that article or book ref that I can't remember.

btlc, thanks for the ref. I looked it over, but it does not expound Rom 8:31-34 like I remember, nor are any claims made about the anointed being perfect and sinless.

Does anyone know how to DL material from the official JW webpage? It's not in the sort of format that others use where you can simply DL what is put up as a pdf.

Looking forward to the further input of those who have already responded, as well as others, until the mystery is solved.

8

Help needed finding an old WT article

by careful in

i no longer trust the search engine at the official jw website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so i'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?).

i think it was an article rather than in a book, but i can't be sure.

the article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.. it's important, i suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the gb decide is completely god-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the gb are viewed as infallible in practical terms.

careful

I no longer trust the search engine at the official JW website since they have quietly modified, purged, and expunged—or simply made no longer available—so many old works/pubs., so I'm asking for help finding an old article that likely predates the late 1970s (?). I think it was an article rather than in a book, but I can't be sure. The article's focus was on what it means for the anointed to be declared righteous.

It's important, I suspect, for grasping the view that whatever the GB decide is completely God-directed, so that, in effect, even though the org might officially deny it, the GB are viewed as infallible in practical terms. In the article, doubtlessly the product of their lone prophet of the time Fred Franz, he used the passage at Rom. 8:31 through the first sentence in v. 34. He may have also included the passage at Is. 54:17, since in the last passage, near the end, the words "And their righteousness is from me" are found. He may also have tied in Matt. 18:18-20 which implies that any decision the anointed may make on earth has been made beforehand in heaven. But, as I recall, the stress was on that Romans passage.

Any help anyone can provide in finding this article would be most appreciated. I suspect that this belief is why we have never heard any admission of error on the part of the GB of the sort that even people like Rutherford were wiling to admit in earlier days, with his "I made an ass of myself" statement over his 1925 and Beth-Sarim debacle.

Thanks in advance.

33

Door-to-door preaching as surveillance

by john.prestor in

i wanted to share some thoughts about jehovah's witnesses and their door-to-door preaching.

door-to-door preaching is supposedly about gathering converts, but in fact, as we frequently discuss, doesn't actually bring that many "sheep-like ones" in.

i want to suggest that a second meaning (what we call the latent meaning in academia) is facilitating surveillance of the congregants who attend some congregation.

careful

Two thoughts: 1. Most Witnesses who believe it all would not want to celebrate holidays.

2. "surveillance of the congregants," as you put it, is so imbued into the Witness life that it permeates everything Witnesses do, the field service/ministry included. The last should not be singled out as something special in this regard.

23

Noah 'warning the people'

by KW13 in

jw
friends

am i imagining this?at the kingdom hall we were told many times that noah warned the others about the coming flood and was ridiculed but actually there is no evidence of this in the bible!there is however evidence to the contrary.

matthew 24:37-39.

37 as it was in the days of noah, so it will be at the coming of the son of man.

careful

The belief that Noah preached, warning people of the coming flood, was common in the non-biblical Jewish literature at that time. If you want to read what his supposed message was, see Josephus Antiquities 1.74, and the Jewish Sibylline Oracles 1.182-90). It's just like Jannes and Jambres' names as the Egyptian priests who opposed Moses. Such traditions arose among the fertile minds of Jews at the time, trying to fill in what the Bible does not say. The author of 2 Peter 2:5 picked up on this, like the writer of 2 Tim. 3:8 did on Jannes and Jambres, but there's nothing in Genesis or Exodus of these kinds of details. Plenty of extra-canonical literature had arisen among the Jews at that time, and some NT writers included bits of it. Later rabbinic literature also includes such things.

42

February 2018 Watchtower - Addressing abuse Victims

by Listener in

there's a preview note on one of the articles in this newly released watchtower.

the note can be found on an article titled "part 1 of 4 love and justice in ancient israel".the note states -.

this article is the first in a series of four that will discuss why we can be sure that jehovah cares about us.

careful

Thanks, Listener, for alerting us via this post. It looks like an early "baby step" in changing a bit of policy on this large and complex matter. As others have pointed out, much more is needed. I believe you mean February 2019, not 2018, right? BTW, these are all "study" articles.

First installment:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-february-2019/love-justice-ancient-israel/

I wonder if this is partly an effort to "reward" those abuse victims who have stayed in and not sued the org, as strange as that may seem. It is likely also somewhat a response to the pressure being brought on them from outside.

13

Blondies Thoughts on Generous Giving WT article for Octobeer 21, 2018

by blondie in

jw
friends

quotethe word christ signifies anointed.

anointing means designation to official position in god’s arrangement.

the christ is the instrument or channel for the blessing of mankind.

careful

Blondie,

What I mean is how are they "found"? It seems like a major change in this regard has taken place from CTR's time till today. Back then it seemed they were just looking to find them by drawing anyone out of the churches and into association with Russell and the Bible Students.

I've been out for decades. When I was in, Fred Franz's theology ruled in everything. He taught that all of the remnant had been found before 1935 and were all already in the Witness fold. The only way one could get into the chosen group after '35 was if one already in proved unfaithful and had to be replaced, a supposedly rare occurrence.

Then when there were so few of these self-professed anointed males left, they had to change their policy or they'd have no ultimate, final-say leadership. It looks to me like the policy has come about that the only way such ones are now "found" is if they are already in the full-time service for most of their lives, always been loyal yes men, and suddenly start partaking of the emblems at the Memorial. Isn't that the case for all those now on the GB? So then isn't that how they are now "found"?

I'd be happy to be corrected here if I've got anything wrong here.

13

Blondies Thoughts on Generous Giving WT article for Octobeer 21, 2018

by blondie in

jw
friends

quotethe word christ signifies anointed.

anointing means designation to official position in god’s arrangement.

the christ is the instrument or channel for the blessing of mankind.

careful

What do you think CTR meant with the words "shall have been found"? Do you think the current org view has modified on that point? If so, how?

7

New development on the legal front

by careful in

the feds are finally getting involved, so the child abuse issue is moving up from just the state lea level.

it's with the catholic church so far, and only in pennsylvania:.

https://www.apnews.com/52c119e968c24640a8d2ec5db834759a.

careful

The feds are finally getting involved, so the child abuse issue is moving up from just the state LEA level. It's with the Catholic church so far, and only in Pennsylvania:

https://www.apnews.com/52c119e968c24640a8d2ec5db834759a

We'll have to wait and see if they widen their investigation.

9

Secret documents from WHQ: JWs do everything to avoid reporting CSA

by jochie in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clbnspvradui have seen the documents myself but i am not able to share them without jeopardizing the source.the rtl broadcasting company has spoken to the orginal source and we know that these documents are real..

careful

dubstepped—spot on!

When I was in, another bro and I used to joke about some publisher doing something stupid that was supposed to remain "confidential" and we'd say, "Oh, he/she'll just wind up as another Kingdom Ministry School experience."

37

Possible leak from Annual Meeting 2018

by Listener in

i'm a member on jw talk (until now at least) and have been regularly checking up on their thread regarding the annual meeting.

there hasn't been a great deal to report on except for this recent post that has been made.

i may get outed but that's no loss.

careful

Della Street,

If there's any real info, keep us posted!