Posts by Frogleg

20

What does it mean to Love your neighbor as your self?

by jst2laws in

as one can tell by my screen name i am focused on love as a key ingredient of existence.

i was a jw elder when i first came here and worn out from wt rules and had become acutely focused on the 'two laws'.

matthew 22:39 is one of a few places that the 'two laws' are recorded where we are told to love god with our whole heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Frogleg

This is almost an open ended question because there aren't any reference points. Love is such a broad concept with many approaches and possible methods of operation. If your neighbor wants to play his stereo loud when you want it quiet, should you let him? You play your stereo loud when you love yourself, and you don't when you love yourself in quiet. Does loving him as yourself mean that you let yourself suffer for him? But then, that means that you're loving yourself less than him, which dictates that to love him as yourself, you should love yourself more than him? Are we dizzy yet?

For me, I had to put into some sort of perspective, so, in what is probably a oversimplification well beyond being too vague, I pictured this:

Imagine that your father has sent just sent you a million bucks. He tells you that the reason he sent the million bucks is because he loves you and he loves his grandson and he knows that you'll use the dough to benefit everybody, and that would make him happy. But, especially, the first thing he wants you to do is take hisgrandson and a couple of his grandson's friends to Disney World. You are to spend as much time there as is necessary, but they get to saty there until they've ridden all the rides and had all the fun they can have. So, you inform your son, he gets a couple of his buds, you all bundle into the car and off you go to Disney Word (which just happens to be about 30 minutes away). Well, after a short while, you notice your son and one of his frinds having a bit of a tussle in the back seat so you ask about what is going on. Your son tells you that he is sitting in the middle seat and he can't see out and he wants his friend to change places with him so he can see out because sitting in the middle is soooooo boring. Now, you know what lies just ahead of these guys, and you know that about 15 maybe 20 milliseconds after those guys get out of the car and see those gates to Disney World, they won't remember a thing about the trip. You could have probably sewn you son up in a mattress sack for the trip and he wouldn't remember a thing once his feet touched the asphalt and he catches that first glimpse of Mickey waving at him. So you say to your son, "Hey, don't worry about it, Disney World is 20 minutes away."

What you want your son to do is love his neighbor as himself.

9

Parable of the Talents

by Frogleg in

although it may seem as if a horse is being beaten to death here, i have a question in reference to the "parable of the talents".

matt 25:14 is where it starts.

this particular story is often used by the borg to justify their insistence on field service, and each time i've read it and each time it was read to me, i always came away unsure as to the accuracy of the borg's interpretation.

Frogleg

Leolaia, your research is astounding and you logic quite precise. Doubtless, you have nailed the issues. However, if I might put out one small idea. If the master is JC or BigJ, then the invitation to the kingdom is automatically given to everyone, and whether the talent is increased or not should make no difference. As is constantly remonstrated on this site, it's not the amount of disciple making activity that proves the lie of the Borg, but the singularity of its importance and the resultant view of life and living itself. The inequality of the amount of increase in talents made no difference to the boss, it was only whether it was used or not that was important to him. What seems to anger the boss is not that the slave didn't do anything, but that the slave didn't do anything out of fear of him. In other words, the slave knew the master was able to reap anywhere he chose, at any time he wanted to; and, possibly, that is why the slave feared losing the talent he was intrusted with more than he feared not increasing the bosses wealth. God doesn't need us, he can just make more. Since the talent, to me, represents the individual and his own personal "entrustment" of a life, the fact is, the slave did absolutely nothing with his life for fear of losing it. All of the talent, ability, power, strength, intellect, and so on that the slave had been given were completely wasted because he feared the master, and feared losing his life. The slave not only misunderstood the master's wishes, but misunderstood the world around him as well. In other words, JC was saying, ".. and don't let me come back and find you cowering in your basements, afraid to go outside because you fear me. Your life is precious, your talent is important. The day of your death is more important than the day of your birth, so, when I get back, they better not be equal." What do you suppose JC meant about just putting the dough in the bank and getting interest? Not much disciple making or kingdom invitation there? But he says even that would have been acceptable. Ever notice how the tried and true Borg just sort of turn their brains off? Don't think for themselves, won't think for themselves (or anyone else) because why? They are terrified. And so they sit, buried in the dirt.

And, I geuss, what all of this comes down to is the scorecard that I sort of kept in my head over this. Item 1, the "don't anticipate" directive. The Borg definitely gets an 'F' on this one. Item 2, don't get distracted, stay focused. The Borg gets a 'C-' on this, because althought they seem to stay focused, their inordinant failure of step one has caused the subsequent unfocusing (and downright disbelief) of so many others. And finally, item 3, a resounding 'F', because if you ever notice the whining and moaning from the Borg about why a person should or should not do certain things, the overwhelming reason is because of what "might" happen, or what a person "might be exposed to". Always a movement stopping, fear based "maybe". And to everything given to them, they try to make themselves dead, because they fear the master may kill them if they don't. Like, what would be the difference?

Oh yes, one more thing, please note that my above interpretation does NOT preclude field service (or disciple making, if you wish) to any extent whatsoever. If disciple making is something an individual grows by, then by all means, power to him. But, it is NOT THE ONLY MEANS to increase a person's value.

9

Parable of the Talents

by Frogleg in

although it may seem as if a horse is being beaten to death here, i have a question in reference to the "parable of the talents".

matt 25:14 is where it starts.

this particular story is often used by the borg to justify their insistence on field service, and each time i've read it and each time it was read to me, i always came away unsure as to the accuracy of the borg's interpretation.

Frogleg

PeacefulPete and Leolaia, thank you very much. I tend to agree with the idea that the three parables are linked. Although the aspect that PeacefulPete gave is probably the context and "first impression" that JC was getting across; on deeper thought, however, it would seem non-sequitor if the parable were only about capitalism. The three parables are triggered by JC's discussion as to the end of the system, and they seem to be saying, 1) Don't anticipate it because you'll get it wrong, become bitter, and blame your mistake on everybody else, 2) at the same time, don't get too involved in other things because you'll miss it and lose out, and 3) but don't do nothing. The Borg takes this last point and applies it to a tiny, teeny-weeny sliver of outlook and claims that it means making disciples. Only.

The point that I could never equate about the talents were 1) they were given by the master to the servants, and 2) the master seemd most upset by the "lazy" slaves attitude (his calling the master "exacting" or "harsh" as in other translations) more than any supposed loss of property (which, in fact, he had not lost). Now, to put this in personal, individual terms, the question has to be, "What is this material stuff represented by the talents?" The Borg wants you to believe that it is "The Truth", but God didn't give me the truth, I got it from a very nice lady who knocked on my door once a week. Besides, no matter how many doors I knock on, I will not expand the truth. It is what it is. Which brings up a further Borg implication that the talents are our chance to "prove" that we care for God by our field service, and ONLY by our field service, which would mean that FS is the only acceptable reason we are here. Pretty damn clever of them, I'd say.

So what is this material thing that the talents represent. Well, what is the one thing that unquestionably, undeniably, without any doubt, is given to us by God? One thing: ourselves.

9

Parable of the Talents

by Frogleg in

although it may seem as if a horse is being beaten to death here, i have a question in reference to the "parable of the talents".

matt 25:14 is where it starts.

this particular story is often used by the borg to justify their insistence on field service, and each time i've read it and each time it was read to me, i always came away unsure as to the accuracy of the borg's interpretation.

Frogleg

Thank you for the info. I really didn't mean for you to go thru that much effort, but I appreciate it. The reason I posted the question is because of the logical deductions that come from a study of the parables. By that, I mean that with every part of the Bible, there seems to be multiple layers of content within any grouping of words (which may add fire to the Bible Code controversy) with the first impression being the highest, subtlty being a little deep, deep things lower still, until, eventually, one ends up at the "Movie Critic" level, whereby resultant commentary has virtually nothing remotely connected to the original content under study. As you pointed out, the series of parables (in Matt) are connected by logical thread in that JC seems to be saying don't try to anticipate the moment, because if you do and it doesn't come at the expected time, you will end up doing things that piss off the boss. Don't over estimate the time either, because then you'll lose focus and end up missing the big event and pissing off the boss as well. (The boss, apprently being somewhat easy to piss off.) And, finally, the talent parable, which would seem to round out the trio with a warning of being too expectant, and thereby missing something else of value and (inevitably) pissing off the boss.

But the talent parable doesn't seem to fit into group, as there is no real mention of time frame. Instead, as far as the NWT version (as well as other versions in the NT that were compared), the context of warning seems linked to the aspect of doing nothing. Now, it is conceivable that the "do nothing" error is related to a feeling that the end is too near to even try and do anything; however, that isn't the feeling I get, because the "lazy" slave's excuses centered on his reading of the "master", as opposed to, "Gosh, boss, I didn't know you'd be so slow." or something along that line. (Not to mention the fact that the boss' instructions were to take care of his stuff, not to make it grow. Apparently there were some unspoken understandings along the way because certainly the "lazy" slave could truthfully have claimed that "all that you told me, I did just so!") And it's at this point that the Borg does a very clever "bait and switch".

9

Parable of the Talents

by Frogleg in

although it may seem as if a horse is being beaten to death here, i have a question in reference to the "parable of the talents".

matt 25:14 is where it starts.

this particular story is often used by the borg to justify their insistence on field service, and each time i've read it and each time it was read to me, i always came away unsure as to the accuracy of the borg's interpretation.

Frogleg

Although it may seem as if a horse is being beaten to death here, I have a question in reference to the "Parable of the Talents". Matt 25:14 is where it starts. This particular story is often used by the Borg to justify their insistence on field service, and each time I've read it and each time it was read to me, I always came away unsure as to the accuracy of the Borg's interpretation. The reason I am wondering about this scripture is because of the furror over the WT article condeming higher education. I'm wondering if anyone else sees the connection the way I do?

31

ARRESTED-ELDER SEX 12 y.o. IN K-HALL

by DannyHaszard in

former elder heads to trial on sex charges

news & observer, nc - 14 minutes ago .

pittsboro -- a former jehovah's witnesses minister accused of repeatedly having sex with two underage girls in the group's siler city church is scheduled to go ... .

Frogleg

Odrade,

http://www.freejesse.net/LATimes/Introduction.htm

Oroborus has a point. If the guy did it, then stake his ass over an anthill; but make damn sure he did it first. But until he is proven guilty, keep in mind that next time it may be your turn.

"Go ahead, cut down all the laws, and when the devil turns round on you, tell me, where will you hide then?" - Thomas More

12

My email with a whacked out dub!

by FreeWilly in

steve:.

Frogleg

FreeWilly,

Thank you for posting that. I'm not sure why, but it was somewhat cathartic for me. The questions that you asked were legitimate, and it seemed that Steve's most common response was outright denial. It kind of reminded me of a past president, "...I never had sexual relations with that woman!" "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." And so on. Rutherford was never part of the Borg, eh? Funny, I sort of remember him having a somewhat prominent place in that green book that, supposedly, was the history of the JWs. But let me get this straight, because Russell, Rutherford, Franz, whoever, was giving the "proper food" for that time; but, today what they taught is no longer "proper food", it can therefore be ignored? Gosh, that's rather convenient, and useful. But, thinking about it:

Russel, Rutherford, Franz, et al, claim that Jehovah is The Rock! That He never changes, is always the same. That Jehovah is the same today as he was for Moses. Further, the JWs claim that they are being led by Big J's spirit (in fact, they claim that are the ONLY ones being led so) which brings up the obvious questions 1) If Jehovah's spirit dispenses the proper food only for the moment, at what moment is the Bible proper food? 2) if what is being said, directed, emoted, blathered by the WT and/or Awake is only good for the moment, how long is that moment? Is it good for a day, a week, a month...? Does it come with one of those little milk carton stamps, "Best when consumed by..."? 3) If what Russell said is trumped by Rutherford which is trumped by Franz which is trumped by current events and so on, how is it possible to have any sense of an organization? 4) Rutherford was the dipshyt that came up with "Advertise, advertise, advertise...", is that now considered improper food? On what possible basis can any sort of reasonable credibility be given to what is being said in the WT pubs at this moment?

But this is all doctrinal crapola. Word games, and symantical trickery, showy legerdermane for the easily impressed, snares for those loaded down with sins. My primary argument is not what the Borg says, but what it does. I suffered with all of the inconsistencies, the unanswerable questions, and waited on God to fix everything for 25 years. For most of my adult life I denied myself and my family because, to quote Terry,

"Jehovah's Witnesses are required to live an empty life. It is demanded of them." and that is what I did. During that time I watched those evil, wicked, nasty, horrible "worldly people" do absolutely nothing to me or my family. Instead, I swallowed my bile, while over and over, for the most insignificant of reason the petty and abribtrariness of the Borg would hurt me or mine. FreeWilly, please tell Steve that I didn't leave the Borg because of what they said, or didn't say, but because of what they did and didn't do. The Borg can cut down all the trees in the world and publish words on all the paper they make therewith, but it will not equal the results of their actions. A person can tell me they love me and cheishes me and only want good for me, but after a few body blows, it becomes apparent what that person really is: a liar. And that is what the Borg are, liars. And I don't choose to hang out with such people, which brings us to the biggest point: God doesn't hang out with such people either. Steve's faith is based upon what the Borg promises and what they say, my faith is based upon what they do.

53

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-13-05 WT Study (Education)

by blondie in

review comments will be in red

wt material from todays wt will be in black

quotes from other sources will be blue

Frogleg

I apologize, I am not trying to monopolize this thread, but I am still angry. I have some questions for the weiners at the KH who find "higher" education so distatseful:

Just where do you suppose the wonderful offset presses that printed the shite your reading came from? The inks used? The lasers, computers, software, even the language, where did they come from? The microphone you're talking into and the amplifier and speakers that sounds it out, the very wire between them, the lights overhead, the power generation system and grid that powers your lights, sound amplifier, printing presses, where did they happen to come from? The truss design that supports the roof over your head, the car you drove here in, the shoes you walk on, the medicines you take to ease your maladies, the system of food distribution and preservation that allows you to eat fruit 365 days a year, the refrigeration system that allows you to enjoy delecacies that Solomon could only dream of, how did they happen to get here?

Oh that's right, they were miracled here by your wonderful God Jehovah? Bullshite, people did it. And not people with just high school educations either. Now, if the Borg wants to bitch about a college education, then fine, let them become like the Amish and do away with all of the benefits derrived from college education. Otherwise, they are what they are: crass, fat, unappreciative trolls jamming food in their faces while they bitch at the cook.

53

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-13-05 WT Study (Education)

by blondie in

review comments will be in red

wt material from todays wt will be in black

quotes from other sources will be blue

Frogleg

Blondie,

As usual, thanks for a well done job.

This article and its pompous selfservice has me purple with rage! If I wrote all of what I felt, it would be longer than the article.

"Higher" education has been an ongoing argument in the WTS for at least the 25 years I was in the org, and I could never really understand why. If God is really with you, who can stand? What is most hypocritical (and downright phony) is that the same dildoes who wrote this article will stand flatfooted and swear that JWs don't tell other JWs what to do; that its all a "matter of conscience".

Para 16 made me physically sick.

In total, this makes me think of George Carlin's famous line about the people who oppose abortion being people you wouldn't want to f*ck anyway. It always seemed like those in the Borg most opposed to "higher" education were people who couldn't count the semester hours in a four hour course.

Rivet-

37

Chess!!??

by Lilycurly in

i just read from the quotes website that the wts discourages people to play chess!

i never knew that!lol they compare it to actual war and say it can make one competitive and aggresive.

i've never read such bullshit, if i didn't know better, i would have thought that this was a mock article.

Frogleg

I just went out and told my 21 year old (Mormon) son about this thread and how funny I thought it was. He was playing Halo2 on his XBox and drolly replied, "I guess they'd have a heart attack if they knew what I was playing."