Posts by stev

24

Going over to CT Russell's tomb, anybody want any closeups? Requests?

by thecarpenter in

jw
friends

i'm working on a video of jw beliefs with another ex-jw.

we are going to shoot some footage of russell's tombstone and pyramid and also going to interview a jwd'er about his exit.

i was wondering if any of you have any "reasonable" requests?

stev

I visited the cemetery about 30 years ago. There was no Masonic lodge at that time. I went into the cemetery office and after much begging, was shown the cemetery records for the plot. There were many names of people that had been buried there in the plot that did not have tombstones. The pyramid only lists a few names. The pyramid was not planned by Russell, but was built after his death, in 1919, as I remember. I am not sure about Russell's tombstone, but I doubt that Russell had planned that either. Is there any photograph of a different tombstone that preceded the present one?

The cemetery office had the burial record for Russell, but all I can remember the cause of death listed was incorrect. One thing that is curious is that on the cemetery records, for the officers at that time, the signatures of a man named Bohnet and Spill show up. Bro. Bohnet and Dr. Spill both worked for Russell, and yet they also were officers for the cemetery. This shows that there was some connection between the Watch Tower and the cemetery. Does anyone have clearer information about the cemetery? My memory is that cemetery office had told me that the Watch Tower had once owned the cemetery or the plot of land.

Russell never called himself "The Laodicean Messenger". This comes from the book of Revelation. There were messages to the angels of the seven churches, one of which was Laodicea, the last of the seven churches. Russell taught that the seven churches represent seven stages of the church during the Gospel Age, and that the angels, which can also be translated "messenger" represents human messengers which Christ used to give messages to the Christian church.

The seven messengers is covered quite thoroughly in the book "The Finished Mystery", written by Woodworth and Fisher, not Russell as the book claimed. There Russell is called The Laodicean Messenger. In the years after Russell's death, Russell was canonized by the Society, and glorified. After his death, he was called "That servant" as well. Russell never openly admitted to being "that servant", although it is likely that he believed so.

The canonization of Russell and the pyramid and tombstone are a reflection of the need for Rutherford to establish the legitimacy of his authority. Russell had never designated a successor, and from his Will and Testament for the Society, it is clear that Russell did not plan for one-man rule. Rutherford gained the Presidency by behind-the-scenes political maneuvering and bullying and other suspicious activities, followed by his illegal removal of Board members who did not agree with him. In elevating Russell and thus the Society that he led for many years, Rutherford was able to enhance his own position. When Rutherford's authority was in place, he initiated the decanonization of Russell, and condemned the very "creature worship" that he fostered.

Although Russell had his faults which cannot be excused, the present anger toward Russell is misplaced. Until the internet there was never any hint among the Bible Students/JWs of a Masonic connection, which is based on speculation and ignorance of the true history behind the JWs. Although the pyramid at the tombstone resembles the Great Pyramid, it likely represents the Church class glorified. See the Chart of the Ages, which has many pyramids, including pyramids which represent the Church class, Little Flock.

10

Pyramid book by Smyth online from Morton Edgar's personal library

by cabasilas in

i was playing around with internet archive last night and found this interesting item: it's a scanned copy of "new measures of the great pyramid" by charles piazzi smyth published in 1884. he's the one who wrote "our inheritance in the great pyramid" which c.t.

russell relied on for his pyramid theories.

(in fact, c.t.

stev

Smyth apparently had predicted based on the Pyramid that the year 1882 would be significant. The book mentions the possibility that 1882 would mark "the beginning of the end" or the beginning of the transition between dispensations, and that there would be a neutral zone between them, when Christ would first return for his saints before the tribulation and then later return to establish his kingdom on earth. This was the same reasoning that Barbour/Russell used in the book "The Three Worlds" to explain the apparent failure of Barbour's expectations for 1874.

Morton Edgar appears to have been a good and intelligent man, and it is regrettable that he and others like him wasted their time and talents on the Pyramid. I once perused the library of a believer in the Pyramid who had many books on the Pyramid. The books did not agree, they had different measurements, set different dates, had different meanings and events assigned to the passages. All very confusing. Russell had differing measurements in Vol. 3 in his chapter on the Pyramid, and Morton Edgar's measurements differed from both of Russell's measurements.

That the Pyramid was built by Shem/Melchizedek is purely conjecture. Even though there is a coffer in the Pyramid we are to believe that the Pyramid was not built to be a tomb for Pharoah, and that God picked Egypt to build a building rather than Palestine, and that we are to trust the handful of people who made the measurements.

These books on the Pyramid are often quite unreadable with lengthy discussions of measurements and secret passages that only a privileged few will ever see. There are arguments over a fraction of an inch. When I measure my bedroom I don't always get the same results. Are we to believe that we can get exact measurements from the Pyramid with its worn surfaces and rubble?

The Edgars saw correspondences between places in the Pyramid and events in sacred history. Seen as products of human imagination, there is much ingenuity in this. Unfortunately, the curious can be tempted to mistake their imaginings for divine secrets, and lose touch with reality.

8

C.T Russel and the Organization

by sexyk in

jw
friends

charles taze russel.

founder of the watchtower and a very respected man among the jehovahs witnesses even today.

do you think charles russel, would agree with how the society went about things after his decease ?

stev

We have the benefit of hindsight and living in the year 2007, and we can see the lessons of history much clearer now. If Russell were still living today, would he still hold to the invisible return in 1874, and the end of Gentile Times in 1914? He thought the time of trouble would only last a few years, and had no dates beyond 1918.

It is true that Russell in his will provided arrangements that would have prevented the abuse of power. Russell did not envision one-man rule after his death, but intended the Society to be run with checks and balances. There is nothing to indicate that Russell had picked Rutherford for a successor. There was a quote in a recent thread that said that Rutherford set a law practice in 1915, and left Bethel. Also, Russell had advocated a democratic, congregational form of church government, and viewed the Society as a business that was separate from the churches. When Rutherford attempted to control the churches in the late 1920s, many Bible Students left at that time, not willing to give up their liberty. Russell stressed consecration, character development and the Christian graces, and love toward the brethren. But Rutherford gave all this up and replaced it with "Advertising the kingdom."

Although the JWs would have been better off and less cultlike if they had followed closer to Russell's spirit, Russell created problems for the Society and the Bible Students that any leader coming after him would have had difficulty coping with. Russell did not foresee the need to establish a longterm arrangement, because he thought the Kingdom was imminent. How long could the Society have gone on with only Russell's writings, and no new material? The Bible Students after Russell's death canonized him, and regarded him as "that servant". This was oppressive doctrine that would stifle any group in the long-term. Russell with his prophetic speculations left his movement in confusion. The Pyramid referred to dates that had gone by. With the passing of years, the delay had become more problematic, and Rutherford modified the chronology to keep it current. This only created more problems in the long-term, but saved the group.

If the World War had not occurred in 1914, perhaps Russell would have abandoned his chronology. But instead he saw it as confirmation, without knowing of course that society would continue until 2007. After his death, ones like Woodworth took Russell's practice of speculation and allegorical interpretation to an extreme.

Unfortunately, Rutherford gave up some of the healthier, mainstream, liberal part of Russell's religion, but continued the date-setting and prophetic speculation. He intensified the unhealthier parts that were already present in Russell, but kept in check by Russell's more liberal side. He intensified the dogmaticism, sectarianism, aggresssive preaching, condemnation of society and the churches.

However, modern day Bible Students in holding so closely to Pastor Russell have adopted much of his virtues, but also his mistaken notions, and are in a time warp, stuck in the year 1914, unable to progress. The condition of the JWs and Bible Students is a sad one, and the shadow of Pastor Russell is cast over all of them. The doctrine of "that servant" caused them to uncritically adopt notions that have not stood the test of time, and need to be abandoned.

13

Herald of the Morning magazine

by cabasilas in

i recently received copies of the herald of the morning magazine that was edited by n.h. barbour.

russell is named as one of the assistant editors.

the issues i have are from july 1878 until june 1879. the last issue (june 1879) does not have russell's name on it and we all know the next month he started zion's watch tower (july 1879).

stev

There are two sides to Adventism, one liberal and other conservative. One side of Adventism comes from the Miller movement, with its interest in time prophecies, setting dates, condemning the churches as Babylon, and separating from all who disagreed with them on the definite time; writing books and publishing papers on the time proofs, with charts, finding prophetic fulfillment in contemporary events. Barbour followed in the footsteps of Miller and the original Miller movement, and Russell took this over from Barbour.

However, there is another side to Adventism which was more liberal and broadminded, perhaps exemplified by George Storrs. Storrs had been a prominent Methodist minister, was one of the prominent Millerite preachers, and was mainly responsible for introducing conditionalism among the Adventists. Storrs' motto was "Prove all things", was against organization and sectarianism. Other Adventists were Arian in their views, congregational in church government, opposed to church names such as Adventist. H. L. Hastings published a journal "The Christian", and was interested in defending against infidelity, and was interdenominational in his activities. Russell writes that he became infidel as a youth, and I have suspected that Russell had read Hastings, and drew on his writings for source material, but I have not found enough of Hastings' writings to confirm this.

Storrs, besides teaching against eternal torment, also advocated a future probation for all the unsaved, emphasizing the love of God. Storrs had contacts with many outside of Adventism, and was familiar with the writings of British authors, and acted as a point of contact and conduit for alternative opinions. Storrs denied the personality of the devil, was noncommital on the Trinity. I think that Storrs was also Anglo-Israelite, but I am not sure on this point. There were Adventists that did not believe in the substitutionary atonement, and Barbour and Paton picked up this idea that floating among the Adventists at the time. C. T. Russell opposed this.

Russell combined both sides of Adventism, the conservative/Barbourite/Millerite side, and the liberal/Storrs/independent/broadminded side. But it was an uneasy mixture, and caused conflicting attitudes, and doublespeak.

13

Herald of the Morning magazine

by cabasilas in

i recently received copies of the herald of the morning magazine that was edited by n.h. barbour.

russell is named as one of the assistant editors.

the issues i have are from july 1878 until june 1879. the last issue (june 1879) does not have russell's name on it and we all know the next month he started zion's watch tower (july 1879).

stev

The Herald of the Morning was available on microfilm. I think it was done by University Microfilms or the Theological Association that Melton was/is connected with. Years ago I did see it on microfilm but cannot recall where it was. If my memory is correct, C. T. Russell had an article around 1878 reporting on his attendance at the Prophetic Conference of 1878, as I remember, in New York; this was a non-denominational conference attended by premillenialists. He had a favorable and positive attitude toward the conference. As I remember, Barbour did not go, and was opposed. This was before Russell believed that God had cast off the "nominal church". Russell appears to have been more open and receptive to new ideas during the 1870s than later in his life.

The articles on the atonement that Barbour and Russell and Paton wrote are there in the Herald around 1878. Russell had a notice in the Herald inquiring if there was an interest in another paper, but there was not. This was around 1878/9. I read the Herald up until the turn of the century. I recall reading around the late 1890s that Barbour in referring to Russell, said that his followers believed Russell to be the wise steward of Luke ( "that wise and faithful servant" ?). Barbour also referred to Russell's money interests in iron ore, perhaps around 1880.

The Herald is not an exciting read. Barbour was a narrow sectarian, overconfident in his opinions about the endtimes, condemned any who disagreed with him. Barbour probably inherited this attitude from the Millerite Movement, and Russell to some extent took it over as well. Russell was popular enough that he was able eventually by the 1900s to address his message to the general public in the newspapers, lectures, tracts, and the Watchtower. This had the effect of broadening and tempering his writings, they became more mainstream as the Bible Students tried to become more respectable, and the writing style is quite polished, in the Victorian style. Russell shows signs that he might have been ready to abandon much of his chronology as 1914 approached. But the World War started, as Russell regained confidence in his dates, increased the emphasis on Armageddon, and the narrow sectarianism triumphed.

13

Herald of the Morning magazine

by cabasilas in

i recently received copies of the herald of the morning magazine that was edited by n.h. barbour.

russell is named as one of the assistant editors.

the issues i have are from july 1878 until june 1879. the last issue (june 1879) does not have russell's name on it and we all know the next month he started zion's watch tower (july 1879).

stev

See link below. Peters in his book "The Theocratic Kingdom" quotes from Herald of the Morning, Aug. 1, 1877. There are many references to Barbour and Russell in this book. Conley helped to support the book financially, and is mentioned at the beginning of the third volume. Perhaps Conley was the point of contact between Barbour/Russell and Peters.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZtwOAAAAIAAJ&q=%22herald+of+the+morning%22+barbour&dq=%22herald+of+the+morning%22+barbour&pgis=1

7

The 1924 Edgar Pyramid Trilogy!----PDF!

by Atlantis in

the 1924 edgar pyramid trilogy!

(see the december 1, 1916 watch tower, reprints p.

november 15, 1904 watch tower, reprints, p. 3459 .

stev

It is sad that good and intelligent men would waste their talents on finding symbolical and chronological features to the Great Pyramid.

Russell's chronological timetable and proofs were complex and difficult to follow without adding on top of that the Great Pyramid. Russell's theological system of the Divine Plan of the Ages and the Atonement was also complex. Accepting Russell's message often required the reading and intellectual skills necessary to wade through his books and time proofs. Russell's use of symbol, typology, allegorical interpretation, and use of the Pyramid, and cosmic scheme of the Divine Plan of the Ages attracted some who enjoyed delving into mysteries and complexities, hidden meanings. Although Russell might have had some interesting ideas, he also too frequently indulged in speculative interpretation of the Bible, especially about the future, which did not have touch with reality. The Edgars and the Bible Students and JWs after Russell took Russell's speculative tendencies and took them to extremes.

They succumbed to the temptation of the intellectual and the curious to mistake the product of their own creative imaginations for divine mysteries.

8

Interesting info on N.H. Barbour

by cabasilas in

i don't know if this has been mentioned here before or not.

if so, please ignore.

this looks like it contains an interesting amount of info on n.h. barbour:.

stev

What is sad is the continual date-setting by Barbour and Thurman and the other Adventists, and the cycle of expectation and disappointment, the dogmaticism and stubborness of Barbour, his denouncing those who who rejected his time speculations, when Barbour himself was in the wrong.
Russell's greatest mistake was in following Barbour.
The account assumes that Russell did not recognize Barbour's name when he first received Barbour's Herald of the Morning, but Russell never wrote that.

This account is exceptionally well researched. There is little that is attractive about this portrait. Barbour, Wendell and others were wrong in following Miller, which led to their disappointment and confusion, but instead of abandoning the practice of date-setting, continued to set new dates, and then condemned those who did not follow them as being "evil servants", "foolish virgins."

2

WHAT WAS 1911 WATCHTOWER REVOLT ALL ABOUT?

by badboy in

jw
friends

any information appreciated?

stev

The "free Bible Students" come from this division. They are still around. If you do a Google search, you might find some websites for them.
The controversy started with "the Vow" in about 1909. Russell urged the Bible Students to take the vow, but there were ones that opposed it, claiming that Russell was imposing unscriptural demands.
Then Russell taught "the Church's share in the Sin-Offering" with Jesus, and made changes to the doctrines on the New Covenant, Mediator, the ransom, Sin-Offering. Russell made slight changes in the wording to the Studies in the Scriptures to reflect his new viewpoints. There were some that did not agree with the changes, and believed that Russell was advancing false doctrine. They gave up the idea that Russell was "that faithful and wise servant", and also disapproved of the Studies be studied in the church.

The leaders of the division were McPhail, and Henninges.

9

CALLING ENDED IN 1880 OR THEREABOUTS

by badboy in

jw
friends

was this the little crowd?.

i understand that what ct russell said.. he said door was shut.. 30,000 of the 40,000 or so had deserted,so ctr said..

stev

These quotes from the WT around 1881 shows that Russell still continued to believe in the rapture at that time. In the Harvest Siftings article, Russell connects his change of view with the failed expectation of the rapture in 1878, although Russell does not clearly state that his change of view occurred then. Russell moved the events of the resurrection and rapture from 1874(5?) and 1878 which was taught in the Three Worlds, to 1878 and 1881. I am not sure when he did this. Perhaps the quotes can be found.

Russell expected the door to the high calling closed in 1881. Of course, if all the wise virgins, Little Flock, would be raptured in 1881, this would follow. The door being closed is from the Parable of the Virgins. Some of the Millerites after 1844 also declared the door closed, but they meant the door to salvation. Russell meant the door to the Little Flock. However, the rapture did not occur in 1881, and Russell subsequently gave up the idea that the saints would be raptured while alive, but concluded that all the saints would die as a sacrifice of their humanity. The change would take place after their death.

Russell nevertheless continued to teach that the door to the high calling was closed in 1881, and no more could be spirit-begotten. But later, Russell again changed his mind, and claimed that crowns that were lost would be replaced by others. As a result, Russell's Bible Students were uncertain what their standing before God was, whether they were spirit-begotten or not. Russell postponed the glorification to sometime before 1914, but that also failed to occur.

Perhaps quotes from the Watch Tower could be found to show Russell's changed viewpoints. Zygmunt in his doctoral thesis devotes several pages to 1881. THis is the only place that I have found that explains this.