Posts by yaddayadda

38

How many Christians were there in the 1st century?

by yaddayadda in

just been reading former long-time brooklyn bethelite tom cabeen's very encouraging article entitled "where is the body of christ?".

(can be found at http://divinetruth.homestead.com/bodyofchrist.pdf) .

in his article, tom says: "when john received the revelation around the end of the first century, there were hundreds of thousands of christians, even by conservative estimates.

yaddayadda

Just been reading former long-time Brooklyn Bethelite Tom Cabeen's very encouraging article entitled "Where is the Body of Christ?".
(Can be found at http://divinetruth.homestead.com/BodyofChrist.pdf)

In his article, Tom says: "When John received the Revelation around the end of the first century, there were hundreds of thousands of Christians, even by conservative estimates. All considered themselves to be anointed, born-again participants in the new covenant."

Tom doesn't site any authority on his statement that there were 'hundreds of thousands of Christians' at the end of the first century. Is any clever person here able to refer me to any scholarship or historical source/s to back up his comment?

Much thanks

Yadda

22

Is The Watchtower SocietyA Prison Sentence?

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

is the watchtower societya prison sentence?more often then not individuals who are members of this discussion .

board will talk about freedom from the watchtower society.

some members even have their handles containing the word freedom.. not a literal prison sentencethankfully, i have never seen the inside of any state institution, .

yaddayadda

Any belief or group system that expects conformance to certain behaviours and has some kind of control and reward/punishment system could broadly be termed a 'prison sentence' depending on how you look at it.

The only ways that I see the organisation as a 'prison sentence' is the mind control aspect - the lack of independent thought and true Christian freedom, together with the fear of shunning for questioning or walking away. Those two aspects keep JW's in a kind of mental bondage (prison) to the Watchtower Society.

8

Baptist Church giving courses about JW's teachings and past history

by JH in

jw
friends

since a few months now, my mom goes to a baptist church here in town, and everybody entering the church yesterday received this slip of paper below.

this is an invitation to anyone who would be interested receiving a "course" about jw's, given by a member of the baptist church.. they will talk about the following topics:.

- where does the jw's religion come from.

yaddayadda

I can't help but think its a little pathetic when a particular church does this kind of thing, singling out some other group for specific attack. Of course the JW's can't complain because for years they have ruthlessly trashed the Catholics and Christendom in general. But it just strikes me as petty and nasty and one wonders about the motivation. It would be interesting to read the content of the 'course' too - no doubt it will be just as full of inaccuracies and bias as the JW's are often guilty of when they trash other groups.

10

Is the Society more Orwellian than it used to be?

by under_believer in

jw
friends

i was born in the 70's, grew up during the 80's, was a young adult during the 90's.

i was born into the witnesses and attended meetings that whole time.

i am still attending meetings, in fact, for my wife's sake.

yaddayadda

When you read the Watchtower articles in the 1950's the language was a lot stronger in terms of glorifying the organisation. Phrases like 'the new world society' etc etc were common. (Prior to that the focus was on powerful individuals, ie, the Presidents, Russell, Rutherford, etc.) Of course, there is still that emphasis on the organisation as the only way to salvation, but there has been a trend away from that somewhat to be replaced by an increasing focus on submission the GB and its authority. So, if by 'Orwellian' you mean obedience to a 'big brother' authority structure through the use of propaganda, fear tactics, mind-control, etc, then my answer would be no, things have not got worse per se. The Orwellian 'big brother' has always been there but in different guises: first powerful presidents, then the 'organisation', and now increasingly the GB.

288

Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly in

watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

yaddayadda

'Questions From Readers' in the May 1st 2007 Watchtower :

“On the other hand, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8: 16,17) Thus it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.”

Contrast with this:

January 1st 2007 Watchtower, page 28:

“What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. It one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?”

Aside from the shocking circular reasoning in the second quote, just how much credence does this speculation that the 24 elders ‘would have had to be resurrected…by 1935 at the latest’ now have in view of the ‘new light’ that ‘the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope’ evidently did not end in 1935. Honestly.

288

Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!

by AnnOMaly in

watch out for the questions from readers in the may 1st 2007 watchtower.

"when does the calling of christians to a heavenly hope cease?

" it's a good'un.. included are the statements:.

yaddayadda

How utterly baseless and contradictory is the assertion in the first paragraph that from the 1880's anointed Christians began to become very active, but that only from 1919 have they been 'harvest[ed]'.

Any JW that is tired of having their intelligence insulted with this kind of nonsense must surely start to wonder, "If they dumped the 'generation' teaching and they are now dumping the 1935 teaching, chances are pretty high that they will eventually dump the 1919 teaching also, and then its only a matter of time until they dump the 1914 teaching too?".

And didn't they state in a very recent Watchtower study article that it appears that the resurrection of the anointed to heaven may have ceased in 1935, and/or from 1935 the resurrected anointed appear to have been imparting spiritual truths to the organisation??? If so, this 'new light' must surely contradict that recent claim!

With each passing year the Watchtower Society's absurd patchwork of creeds and speculations revolving around the 1914-1919 chronology is becoming ever more more frayed and tatty. Their chronological fictions are starting to fall apart at the seams, little by little. The more they have to 'adjust' these dusty old teachings the more the ones they still cling to lose credibility, and the more doubts are sown about them.

This comment by another poster really hits the nail on the head: "The JW's time based teachings are beginning to unravel, so they are constantly receiving "new light". What a load of nonsense!"

21

Speculating on the future for pioneers

by OnTheWayOut in

i am sure i could apply my speculations to other countries, but i know the usa, so i am .

being specific about pioneers in the usa.. the pressure to pioneer instead of marrying or raising a family (or both) was considerable in .

armageddon was coming, afterall.

yaddayadda

I don't think any changes will be made here. Pioneer numbers are dropping off in the West but there are more pioneers joining the ranks in the less developed countries, commensurate with the growth in those countries. So the global stats will remain about the same overall.

The pioneers in developed countries are generally very inefficient in bringing new growth to the org anyway. Most of them do nothing more than fill out 'not-at-home' slips, wasting hours and hours knocking on the doors of empty homes during the week. Many of them are also typically very young, lacking the maturity and life-skills to start bible studies. Many are only doing it because of peer pressure and congregational 'glory' or because they are unskilled and want to escape having to work full-time. Many of them struggle to maintain even 1 genuine bible study (ie, not a study with some kid in the congregation)? The rest are neurotic, middle-aged dullards who failed to attract a mate and are just going through the motions, having decided that there is nothing much left in life for them but to do but live the life of a JW 'nun' and hope that the new system comes soon.

In a nutshell, most pioneers are completely useless.

5

Rev. Book Quote-What Were We Exposing?

by Justitia Themis in

but during world war i, they met up with intense hatred and opposition, partly because they did not get caught up in the war fever and partly because they were fearlessly exposing the errors of christendom.

what errors of christendom were we exposing at this time?

did they still celebrate christmas, birthdays, use the cross etc.

yaddayadda

The Bible Students were exposing Christendom's false dogmas long before WW1, in fact from when they started around 1879. Of course, that doesn't suit the Watchtower's desire to single out the WW1 period as something unique in order to support their claim that Jesus returned and inspected Christendom at that time.

In fact, during WW1 they were much less bold, with the preaching work almost coming to a complete halt by the latter stages.

And isn't it utterly ridiculous that many of the 'Bible Students' that were doing all of this fearless exposing during WW1 suddenly turned into the 'evil slave' class when they refused to kowtow to Joseph Rutherford's demands just a few short years after WW1.

13

1914, 607 and why the details don't mean as much as the bigger picture

by drew sagan in

i wrote this just because i recently saw some people on another site trying to defend the 607 date.

this is mostly for lurkers, those who still may be hodling onto the idea that there is truth in this date.

probably one of the most talked about wt doctrines is that of 1914 and the 'gentile times'.

yaddayadda

Most JW's would typically respond that, despite what you say, 1914 still marked the beginning of the 'last days' because of all the wars, famines, petilences, etc, that have occurred SINCE then. Two world wars alone between 1914 and 1945 is probably enough to convince most of them on this.

My own mother, still a loyal JW after 40 years, no longer believes that Jesus returned in 1914 or that the kingdom was established then. She came to this conclusion entirely from her own bible research and thinking, without so much as looking at a single apostate website or piece of writing!!! Yet she remains loyal to the org because she just puts the Society's teaching about the kingdom being established in 1914 as mere 'timing' errors. Despite this, she remains convinced that starting with WW1 we have seen the so-called 'composite sign' Jesus gave.

She would probably benefit from Carl Olof Jonsson's book about this but she won't touch anything 'apostate' (highly critical of the org).

22

Does the GB believe the doctrine themselves?

by GBSJG in

after reading crisis of conscience i got the impression that most on the gb actually believe all the doctrine themselves or at least that they believe that they are doing there best and god is helping/blessing them.. this sometimes seems unbelievable to me considering that they know about all the bad things in the org and see so many problems that the rank file normally does not notice or know about.

i'm currently reading combatting cult mind control by steve hassan.

when reading that book i can see that there are some cults that are far worse then the jws.

yaddayadda

You can't just throw a blanket over all JW teachings and ask 'do they believe their own doctrines'. It's not as simple as that.

Many of the JW's teachings are compelling, particularly their rejection of the trinity and immortal soul dogmas. Even the 'arch-apostate' himself, Ray Franz, evidently still believes these fundamental JW teachings. So there is absolutely no reason to suspect that the GB don't believe all of their own CORE doctrines.

On the other hand, there are a lot JW teachings that are much less compelling, in fact, that are clearly quite erroneous, eg, 1914. It is these other, much more debateable doctrines, that no doubt some of the GB harbour doubts about. Ray Franz made this plain in his books when he referred to certain doubts some GB members had in such teachings even back in his time. But this doesn't affect them because they remain convinced of the core doctrines.

This is the real concept that binds JW's, including the GB, to the organisation, despite having doubts on some things: The fact that they teach a certain framework of fundamental 'truths' (no-trinity, no immortal soul, no hellfire) and are the biggest group by far to uphold these teachings.

The GB and rank and file may be bugged about some of the lesser, fringe teachings, but as long as they don't change their fundamental body of doctrines they will always maintain a large, loyal following.