Posts by yaddayadda

10

King of South Still Pushing

by proplog2 in

this is a link to a rather long article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewarticle&code=eng20070220&articleid=4873.

many on this board have thrown out bible prophesy along with the watchtower.

even the watchtower has stepped away from identifying the new king of the north.

yaddayadda

I find it astounding how a self confessed atheist can get so steamed up about interpretations of bible prophesy.

46

Parallels between Jonestown and WT org?

by skeptic1914 in

how many saw the recent "jonestown-paradise lost" on the history channel?

i realize the suicide/murder of over 900 in jonestown, guyana on novemebr 18, 1978 may be old news but i've always been interested in how cult leaders hold power over their believers.

i've been reluctant to classify jw as a cult but some obvious parallels struck me:.

There are obvious parallels but beyond a certain point the comparison becomes a real stretch.

Perhaps in decades to come if the organisation splintered then you might find some small clique that becomes extreme and radical like Jonestown did. But presently the comparison wears thin.

7

NWT Contradictions on the Identity of Christ.

by roflcopter in

so in doing some research into the identity of christ we all know that the nwt quotes john 1:1 as: .

2 this one was in [the] beginning with god.

yet lets rewind a little bit here in our copies of the nwt and go to isiah 43:10: .

yaddayadda

The word 'God' has shades of meaning. The simple defense is that there is a scriptural distinction that can be shown between the one true Almighty God, the God of Israel Jehovah, and all other gods, even Jesus. Even Israel's judges are called 'gods' in the OT, a point Jesus noted. So Jehovah saying that before or after him there is no other God means that only he will forever be the 'only true God', as Jesus himself acknowledged at John 17:3. Rather than Jesus indicating he was the one true God along with the Father (a contradiction in itself), any apparent allusions to Jesus as 'God' should be read as Jesus acting as a divine agent, a representative Son sent by his Father Jehovah. This is how any OT titles or roles applied to Jesus that were originally ascribed to Jehovah should be intepreted. Eg, Emmanual meaning 'God is with us' means Jehovah is with Israel through Jesus, not literally as him.

10

King of South Still Pushing

by proplog2 in

this is a link to a rather long article: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewarticle&code=eng20070220&articleid=4873.

many on this board have thrown out bible prophesy along with the watchtower.

even the watchtower has stepped away from identifying the new king of the north.

yaddayadda

The Cuban missle Crisis was a lot worse. Why should one read so much into the US's intentions to put a few more nukes in Europe. Naturally Putin is going to spew a bit over it but that's what politicans and diplomats do.

7

WTS misrepresented what CTR wrote

by Doug Mason in

it is bad to make a false and misleading prophecy.

it is worse to later infer that the prophecies were correct.

in 1973, at the height of the frenzied anticipation for the imminent start of the millennium in 1975, the wtbts published gods kingdom of a thousand years has approached.

yaddayadda

You are right, but this kind of criticism hardly makes a dent with most JW's because they are convinced that it has to be more than just coincidence that Russell pointed to 1914 as a 'marked year' in bible prophecy and WW1 erupted in that very year - an event that numerous statesman and historians describe as a significant 'turning point' in modern history.

<br><br>Russell did, after all, predict something tumultous in store for the gentile 'nations', and WW1 was certainly tumultuous for Europe. That's good enough for most JW's. Thus the great majority of them remain spellbound by Russell's chronology after all these years, and even after learning that Russell stated 1914 was to be the terminus ad quem of the last days, not the beginning of them.

So most JW's feel comfortable in defending the accusation that this was a 'false prophecy' by Charles Russell. There are better examples of 'false prophesying' by the Watchtower Society imho.

4

Watchtower 1914 Statements. Don't they know?

by prophecor in

have witnesses been informed about the statement on the inside cover of wt regarding 1914 is no longer an issue.

do they realise that the statement has been removed?

i was in the supermarket and a brother from my old congo asked what hall i attended now.

yaddayadda

Prophecor, presumably you are referring to the change in the statement of purpose for Awake! magazine from this:

"Most importantly, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." (pre November 1995)

...to this:

"Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things." (November 8 1995)

I'd say less than 5% of JW's noticed this sneaky little change and that's being generous. (Compare Deuteronomy 18:21-22.)

This change in the Awake!'s stated purpose was necessitated by their technically ending the connecton of 'the generation' to 1914 and replacing it with this:

On page 17 of the November 1 1995 Watchtower, in the article "A Time to Keep Awake", the Society stated:

"Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term "generation" as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics."

The theme was expanded on page 19 of the same magazine:

"Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways."

Of course, since 'the sign of Christ's presence' is still taught by the Society as having been in evidence since 1914, the link is subtly still there in many JW's minds.

11

WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial

by yaddayadda in

please read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.

the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.

the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.

yaddayadda

deleted - double post.

11

WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial

by yaddayadda in

please read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.

the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.

the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.

yaddayadda

Exactly, Leolaia.

Even if there were two 'classes', there is no scriptural justification whatsoever to restrict partaking of the emblems to only one 'class'.

In fact, the Society even states that the 'great crowd' inherit 'the kingdom' - just the earthly 'realm' of the kingdom rather than the heavenly 'realm':

*** w99 3/1 18 "The Temple" and "the Chieftain" Today ***
21 It is not only the chieftain and the priesthood who have assigned places in this restored land. The dividing of the land shows that each one of the 12 tribes has a secure inheritance. (Ezekiel 47:13, 22, 23) So those of the great crowd not only have a place in the spiritual paradise today but will also receive an assignment of land when they inherit a place in the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom

*** w97 9/15 20 Who Will Survive "the Day of Jehovah"? ***
If you yearn to live forever in an earthly paradise, you must demonstrate heartfelt support for true worship, as Jehonadab did. Then you may be among Jehovah’s faithful servants, who will soon experience the fulfillment of Jesus’ words: “Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.”—Matthew 25:34.

If they 'great crowd' still 'inherit the kingdom' according to Matthew 25:34 then why continue the sham of denying them the emblems?

The confusion lies in the Society's very narrow interpretation of what 'the kingdom' is: that it is a heavenly 'government' for a small minority of Christians. They are bending the entire Christian Greek scriptures around Luke 22:28-30 and a couple of verses in Revelation.

4

1935 teaching ...does this scripture apply?

by ninja in

(matthew 23:13-14) 13 woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!

because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.

yaddayadda

The dropping of the 1935 teaching doesn't change the fact that the Society still teaches there are two 'classes' of Christians, a heavenly class and an earthly class.

So that scripture would be better suited to those who want to attack that distinction, not the 1935 date as such.

3

Mennonites, Waldenses, etc, didn't use the name 'Jehovah'.

by yaddayadda in

my understanding is that the society suggests that various christian groups that popped up here and there during the christian era, such as the waldenses, etc, likely contained 'wheat-like' christians, ie, anointed ones with the heavenly calling.

the basis for assuming this is because these groups taught certain similar doctrines that jw's do today that makes them stand out from broader christendom (anti-trinity, etc).

the argument is that these groups read the bible for themselves, saw that the big churches had some things wrong, but were soon persecuted and crushed by the powerful false religious 'weeds'.

yaddayadda

Found this from 1965, although it seems they are less generous in more recent statements on the subject:

*** w65 3/15 191-2 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers

ó Have there been witnesses of Jehovah on earth in every period of human history? What about the Dark Ages?

It does not appear wise to answer these questions dogmatically. However, it does seem that reason and the facts of history, together with what God’s Word has to say, allow for the conclusion that there have been witnesses of Jehovah on earth in every period of human history.

The mere fact that only three Witnesses are mentioned by name before the Flood does not mean that there may not have been others. It is quite probable that Abel was married at the time he was a faithful Witness and so his wife could have continued being a Witness after his death. And then there was Lamech; for him to utter the inspired prophecy about his son Noah he also must have been a witness of Jehovah.—Gen. 5:29.

After the Flood we find faithful Shem surviving until Abraham’s day. And were not Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Job faithful witnesses, even as must have been the parents of Moses? With the forming of the nation of Israel the entire nation became a nation of witnesses, even as Jehovah shows at Isaiah 43:10-12. That nation continued as witnesses of Jehovah until 36 C.E.
That Jehovah has also had witnesses on earth from Christ’s time until our day seems to be indicated by Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds as recorded at Matthew chapter thirteen. Therein Jesus stated that both the wheat and the weeds would continue growing together until the harvest, when a separation would take place. This parable may be taken to imply that during all this time, from the first sowing until the harvest, there would be some genuine Christians, “wheat,” even though at times their number might be exceedingly small.

Thus throughout the centuries there have been professed Christians who rejected the error of the trinity, usually called “Arians.” There were those who closely followed primitive Christianity and who were known as quartodecimans because of celebrating Christ’s memorial on Nisan 14, holding out against the paganizing trend of Rome. Then there were the Paulicians from the seventh century onward, whose teachings have been termed “genuine apostolic Bible-Christianity.” They stood solely by the “New Testament,” practiced adult baptism, believed that God in his love had sent an angel to earth who at his baptism became God’s Son. They rejected unscriptural tradition, had no clergy-laity distinction, refused to revere the cross.

Then there were the Waldenses from the twelfth century forward, who had much in common with the previous Paulicians in rejecting all false tradition such as purgatory, the mass, and so forth, and adhering closely to the Bible, although they did not limit themselves to the so-called “New Testament.” The only two ceremonies they recognized were baptism and the Lord’s evening meal. They strictly followed Bible principles regarding morality and refused to celebrate popular religious holidays such as Palm Sunday, Easter, All Saints’ Day, and so forth. Typical is the statement of one of them, who was martyred, that ‘the Cross should not be prayed to but loathed as the instrument of the Just One’s death.’

Many were the Arians, Paulicians and Waldenses, not to mention others, who because of their Bible-based religion suffered martyrdom. Not that this in itself or together with their beliefs, as noted in the foregoing, indicated that all of them had God’s approval. Why not? Because time and again not a few of these took up the sword to defend themselves against Roman Catholic crusades in violation of Matthew 26:52.

The foregoing facts therefore would appear to demonstrate two things: (1) That through all the centuries from the time of Abel to modern times there were those who adhered so closely to God’s Word as to be considered God’s witnesses that had his approval. (2) That the number of them must have been small. This would be in keeping with the limited number composing the body of Christ as well as with the fact that comparatively large numbers of these appeared at the sowing and at the harvesttime.