Posts by Borgia

49

Those raised as JWs-Do you recall the path of doubts that led you to leave?

by ithinkisee in

jw
friends

i posted a similar topic a year and a half ago.

i thought with all the new people it would be interesting to ask it again.

so i began to research ... and here i am.

Borgia

IthnkIsee,

Example of the first doubt as a kid (6 years): I liked the girlfriend from nextdoor very much. We were in the same school in the same class living in the same street. We played together everyday. I remember giving her a kiss on the cheek and I still sense the softness of her skin.....BUT .....my dad went bezerk over it and called it an immoral act. I still remeber the beating.......

Example of the second doubt as a kid: (8 years) If as christians we are supposed to give blessing ( Romans) why is it that 1) we are not allowed to say congrats at birthdays and happy new year at jan 1st? (so I said congrats, kiss kiss, Happy NEW YEAR, kiss kiss because I found the explanation given completely crap)

Example of the third Doubt as a kid: My dad forbade us to read any more comics. I liked Lucky Luke, Donald Duck, Sammy, etc. All of a suddden it was forbidden. One day I had taken an album with me from the library. I was reading it while lying on the bed and it was becoming meeting time. My dad openened the door to my room, saw the album and went bezerk. He insisted on expelling me from the home and let me stay with my teacher whom he thought I'd rather obeyed than him. Yes, you read it correctly: This was not shunning: this was full blown disfellowshipping in the security of ones own home.......But then again: he was the chief ranking elder in the city.....So, I concluded that I loved my mother more than my dad, whom I started to dislike. There was not a ....synthesised doubt or something,.... more a feeling of something being totally out of place......

Example of the fourth doubt as a kid: Why are the elders fighting amoung themselves? Are they not supposed to be loving and caring?

Example of the fifth doubt as a kid: 1975......WTF?Oh no....As a kid I was not familiar with that expression. I just had that uneasy feeling that something was wrong: If Jesus said: You do not know the hour....what are they talking about? My mother went working. The cong was divided whether or not she was allowed to do that and whether or not well we were materialistic.(I still see myself sitting in that black leather chair that looked like the one James T Kirk was sitting in on the Enterprise......Far more exiting then the yellow: 1000 year kingdom book. )

Example of the sixt doubt as a kid: 1975: we went on holidays for 4 weeks in a row to a country were the bro's did not know any cong existed. How were we supposed to survive the big A which was to come any moment now. On the contrary: we had to stay within the limits of the cong! Should or should we not be expelled?

Example of the seventh doubt as an adolescent: Why does my dad has a need to punish us and threaten us if we would only contemplate in getting help from government youth emegency help? I thought that christians do not resort to violence........(at that time I started to recognize the pattern in my dad behavior: he resorted to violence and threats to keep us in line...hmmm)

Example of the eigth doubt as an adolescent: Ressurection hope: To me my dead mother was dead....that was the end of it...period. Although I missed her terribly, the ressurection hopes expressed on all those cards we received at that time did not comfort me. Text A, B, C, D...They felt empty, like the book of Job. There's something going on but I won't tell you why: shut up, accept it and bugger off! It actually angered me. But what could I say.......It was all I knew....

Example of the nineth doubt as an adult: Why did the elders not back me up on an assignment none of them were willing to take. I was assinged to care for a bookstudy group in another town about 10 miles from my house without having a car. You know the drill: conducting bookstudy, spepharding calls, fieldservice in that territory, taking care of the elderly needing some sort of support. This group consisted for a large part out of the most subverive elements combined jealosy and backstebbing our cong could produce. Coming to think of it still gives me a headache. That assignment broke me. If this was Gods spirit directed org than I did not understand spirit direction. compared to scripture, it was an emmpty meaningless statement. No care, no buffer, no backup, no help.

Basically, all I was left with was a emptyness after 26 years of JW-life of which were spent 6 years in full-time service. I was just waiting for the....right answers......Those came in 2001 when Ihooked up in the net.

Since then doubts have increased exponentionally. And I am quite coformtable with them ....

Cheers

Borgia

48

Update- My fade and the elders inaction

by OnTheWayOut in

jw
friends

here's the story in a nutshell.

i stepped aside as elder in a foreign language congregation with a resignation letter in august.. i cited doubts in doctrine concerning "this generation" and 1975, and also said i don't "know".

the governing body well enough to teach their doctrine.

Borgia

I agree with the qualification: spiritual taskmasters....This week we had the CO visiting. It was all about doing more...bla bla bla. The "public"-talk was a discussion on the requirements to be admitted to the NW. Guess what. They discussed OT Psalm 15 but forgot to mention that the basic thing is: John 3:16.

OTWO: Glad they do not bother you! All the better!

cheers

Borgia

8

XING is a great

by GermanXJW in

jw
friends

xing is the leading system in 'social network' systems (despite linkedin is more known in the us).

it is available in 16 different languages.

i understand that it automatically adopts to your language.. i have been registered for over a year now and i really like it because it is a great tool to stay in touch with friends and collegues internationally.they have high-quality boards for a lot of topics as well.

Borgia

I have been using it for half a year now and it is a good way to stay in touch...

cheers

Borgia

6

Auxiliary Pioneers

by dothemath in

a recent meeting stressed the usual pioneering for march and april.........in canada they want to reach a new peak of 20,000 auxiliary pioneers.. the article mentioned that would only require 20% of each congregations publishers.. we're not even close in our congregation........so far 4 out of 90 pubs.

how is the push going in other areas?.

i have my doubts they'll reach their goal..........will have to wait and see.

Borgia

A few years back saw the same kind of action. To no avail......

That's encouraging for future developments...

Cheers

Borgia

47

Can a person become anointed before being baptised?

by unbaptized in

can a person become anointed before being baptised?

Borgia

Cornelius received spirit before babtism. babtism could no longer be withheld after Peter saw Cornelius' household being under influence of spirit. There you go. However, people have oftentimes tried to channel the spirit. While in fact the spirit is kind of....chaotic, outside of human organisational structure.......I wonder why....

cheers

Borgia

59

Do you agree that, if there are errors in the bible, then it's all wrong?

by JH in

in other words, if you can find a few errors in the bible, will you throw away the whole notion of the bible being "inspired by god".

example: if you find any error in the bible, will it take away the notion that killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong, .

so where do you draw the line, and accept certain biblical teachings and reject other biblical teachings?.

Borgia

Brother apostate: Turning the other cheek: You may comfort yourself by the idear that a person hih above looks upon you favourably if you do so. However,looking at the world as it is, this teachings is not very ......usefull. Compare to the actions of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Turkey on the Armenians, Sebs on the Bosnians, and of course we could nae some contemporaries. Even ones we encounter in our own lives. Although you may walk away from a single insult, it is even harder to do so if your wife gets molestated, or your kids being threatened by a molester. Although you may act in a civilised way if handling the admin in an accident, you will most likely act differently when a thief enters your house.

@ general: Ok, Embracing the big concept of loving thy neigbour as yourself. On a small scale that may be possible. The way I treat people in my personal environment gives them a good or a bad feeling. Response: good or bad. So, yes, I see advantage in that. However, this concept does not prevent people like Amahdinejad to pursue a dangerous course. When we apply this conept to the greater scheme of things it becomes a laughable perogative, a joke.

You may love your neighbour, the molestor, as much as you want, in the end you do not wish to be confronted with him. You either wish the molester dead, behind bars for a lifetime and /or even castrated. Hence the databases with names and addresses of known molesters.

The fact of the matter remains: looking for guidance with people who could not even provide the answer on the existence of the lightbulbs in the night sky, do not by default have the answer in all our ethical issues. They may provide some interesting food for thought, but hardly an authoritive answer.

The bible is erronous. so what? Does that make it worse than say, Warran buffets autobiography? It is time to value it as it should be: The contemporaries of the ones who wrote it, were the ones least familiar with it....... Hence the need of canonicity....

Cheers

Borgia

59

Do you agree that, if there are errors in the bible, then it's all wrong?

by JH in

in other words, if you can find a few errors in the bible, will you throw away the whole notion of the bible being "inspired by god".

example: if you find any error in the bible, will it take away the notion that killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong, .

so where do you draw the line, and accept certain biblical teachings and reject other biblical teachings?.

Borgia

Below I provide a table of reasons why a certain book of the NT is authentic. In WT speak this also means that it should be part of the canon which also means it is inspired scripture. This info is taken from Si-book.

ABLE FRAME=BOX CELLSPACING=0 COLS=4 RULES=GROUPS BORDER=1>

BookIdentificationExampleReason for canonicityMatthewOverwhelming evidence early churchPapias of Hierapolis (early second century C.E.) from the calm appeal as to a settled authorityfrom the absence of all hints of doubtMarktradition of Papias, Origen, and Tertullianancient manuscripts, such as the Sinaitic and the Vatican No. 1209fourth-century scholars Eusebius and Jerome are in agreement that the authentic record closes with the words Lukeancient authorities Muratorian Fragment (c. 170 C.E.) shows evidence of Paul’s influence (i.e. Lord's supper account)Pointing to actual fulfillment of prophecyHe quotes Jesus’ inspired testimony As a scholar (MD/GP) we can be sure he did not leave one stone unturned to assemble an accurate accountJohnChurch fatherClement of Alexandria (2nd Century )Papyrus Rylands 457 (P52) (ca 150 C.E.)Internal evidenceEusebius (c. 260-342 C.E.) quotes Irenaeus as sayingKenyon: circulation close to original proves traditionActsActs 1 and last chapter of luke equalMichigan No. 1571 (P38) Chester Beatty No. 1 (P45) Difference in style of speech = actual record no fictionThe way a ship is steeredTemple of artemis in EphesusRomansIntroductionPeter uses similar expressionsQuotes by Clement of Rome (<98 CE)Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) (3rd Cent)1 Cortint.Introductionit is said that First Corinthians is alluded to and quoted at least six times in a letter from Rome to Corinth dated about 95 C.E. and called First Clementdirectly quoted by Justin Martyr2 CorinthIntroductionSecond Corinthians has always been reckoned along with First Corinthians and the other Pauline epistles as an authentic part of the Bible canonGalatiansIntroductionIt is referred to by name in the writings of IrenaeusChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)it is entirely in harmony with the other Greek Scripture writings and also with the Hebrew ScripturesEphesiansIntroductionIrenaeus attributes certain text to PaulEusebius, another authority on early Christian history (c. 260-342 C.E.), includes Ephesians in the Bible canonQuotes from early churchfathers makes it part of biblical canonPhilippiansIntroductionPolycarp (69?-155? C.E.) mentioned Paulcited in the Muratorian Fragment of the second century C.Equoted as from Paul by IgnatiusChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)ColossiansIntroductionChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)1.ThessaloniansIntroductionThe book is internally harmonious with the rest of the inspired WordMentioned in Muratorian FragmentChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46)2.ThessaloniansIntroductionquoted by Irenaeus Allusions made by Justin MartyrThough it is now missing from the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46), it was almost certainly contained in the first two of seven leaves that are missing after First Thessalonians1.TimothyIntroductionPolycarp (69?-155? C.E.) mentioned Paulstrong evidence from the early church2.TimothyIntroductionIt was recognized and used by PolycarpTitusIntroductionThe style of writing is similarIrenaeus and Origen both quote from TitusJohn Rylands Library P32 Codex Leaf (3rd Cent.)PhilemonIntroductionHe was acknowledged as such by Origen and TertullianMuratorian Fragment of the second century C.E.HebrewsInternal evidencePlace: Italy & associated with Timothy = PaulHe was acknowledged as such by Origen and Tertullianthe doctrine is typical of PaulChester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) There is no substantial evidence, external or internal, in favor of any claimant to the authorship of this epistle except Paulthe contents of Hebrews prove that it is “inspired of GodIt constantly magnifies Jehovah’s Word and his nameJamesIntroductionVatican No. 1209A deep inner harmony with the rest of the inspired Scriptures is very evident widely quoted by early ecclesiastical writers1.PeterIntroduction Irenaeus names Peter as writerIrenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian all quote the letterIgnatius, Hermas, and Barnabas, of the early second century, all make references to itcompletely in harmony with the rest of the inspired Scriptures 2.PeterIntroductionIts canonicity has also been disputed on the grounds that it “is poorly attested in the Fathersregarded as part of the Bible catalog by a number of authorities prior to the Third Council of Carthage1.JohnIntroductionIrenaeus, Polycarp, and PapiasMuratorian Fragment 2.JohnOlder man = John.From their general similarity, we may conjecture... McClintock & strongquoted by Irenaeusaccepted by Clement of AlexandriaMuratorian Fragment3.JohnOlder man = John.See 2.JohnJudeIntroductionMuratorian FragmentClement of Alexandria (second century C.E.) accepted it as canonicalRevelationHe must be the apostle JohnPapias is said to have held the book to be of apostolic originThere is no doubt that it belongs with the other inspired ScripturesIrenaeus speaks explicitly of the apostle John as the writer

	Muratorian	Irenaeus,	Clement	Tertullian,
		Fragment,	Asia	Alexandria
		Italy

Approximate
Date C.E.	170	180	190	207

Matthew	A	A	A	A
Mark	A	A	A	A
Luke	A	A	A	A
John	A	A	A	A
Acts	A	A	A	A
Romans	A	A	A	A
1 Corinthians	A	A	A	A
2 Corinthians	A	A	A	A
Galatians	A	A	A	A
Ephesians	A	A	A	A
Philippians	A	A	A	A
Colossians	A	A	A	A
1 Thessalonians	A	A	A	A
2 Thessalonians	A	A	A	A
1 Timothy	A	A	A	A
2 Timothy	A	A	A	A
Titus	A	A	A	A
Philemon	A	A
Hebrews	D	DA	DA
James	?
1 Peter	A?	A	A	A
2 Peter	D?	A
1 John	A	A	DA	A
2 John	A	A	DA
3 John	A?
Jude	A
Revelation	A	A	A	A

A - Accepted without query as Scriptural and canonical

D - Doubted in certain quarters

DA - Doubted in certain quarters, but cataloger accepted it as
Scriptural and canonical

? - Scholars uncertain of the reading of the text or how a
book mentioned is viewed

- A blank space indicates that the book was not used or
mentioned by that authority

So, what real answer can the WTS provide to support 1) authencity, 2) canonicity, 3) inspiration of God?
I could come up with a book...say.....the history of the brittisch kings written by Geoffrey of Monmouth and apply the same arguments as have been supplied for ....say....Acts. Does that make it a more truthfull account than homer's Ilias or Odyssee? Or the bible as a whole?
Si-book excells in exlpoiting the following line of reason: a snippet, a detail, a name, a location, a flower is truthfully depicted. Therefore the whole book is trustworthy thus inspired......

O....one more feature: all is larded with expressions like: overwhelming evidence, testimony, etc, were there is only secondary or tertiary allusions offered. interesting, no?

Cheers

Borgia

18

Could this cover-up be true ?

by chasson in

http://www.frontpagenews.us/2007/02/special-investigator-probes-possible.html.

bye.

charles.

Borgia

The article is not very well written and difficult to understand.

Garbage

Cheers

Borgia

15

My Re-instatement Letter

by Hangin_on in

this is weird.

i searched on the internet for ideas for my re-instatement letter and after gathering my information i submitted it.

the local body of elders questioned some of the information on it asking if it was from my heart and asking where i got it.

Borgia

You are not lost.....you may have lost your mind to a degree........If you read your gps you would know were you are right now and you can go from there.....

Cheers

Borgia

45

For those who were raised in "the truth"

by Hangin_on in

how many of you always felt like you would be killed at armageddon no matter what you did... it was never enough and your parents put a guilt trip on you?

Borgia

The big A was not something we worried about at our home. My fathers punishments were of a more immediate danger. I still recall the last beating I got with an iron rod.........

When reading about fear of the big A I had to think of a line I heard in kill bill 1 and related to the horrors of the big day as described by Zechariah, Joel, Zephaniah .....This is God talking:

12 “And this is what will prove to be the scourge with which Jehovah will scourge all the peoples that will actually do military service against Jerusalem: There will be a rotting away of one’s flesh, while one is standing upon one’s feet; and one’s very eyes will rot away in their sockets, and one’s very tongue will rot away in one’s mouth.
18 “‘Woe to those who are craving the day of Jehovah! What, then, will the day of Jehovah mean to YOU people? It will be darkness, and no light, 19 just as when a man flees because of the lion, and the bear actually meets him; and [as when] he went into the house and supported his hand against the wall, and the serpent bit him.
14 “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. 15 That day is a day of fury, a day of distress and of anguish, a day of storm and of desolation, a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick gloom, 16 a day of horn and of alarm signal, against the fortified cities and against the high corner towers. 17 And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned. And their blood will actually be poured out like dust, and their bowels like the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury; but by the fire of his zeal the whole earth will be devoured, because he will make an extermination, indeed a terrible one, of all the inhabitants of the earth.”

This is Bill talking:

Do you find me sadistic? You know, I'll bet I could fry an egg on your head right now, if I wanted to. No, Kiddo, I'd like to believe you're aware enough that, even now, to know there's nothing sadistic in my actions... Maybe towards those other jokers, but not you. No, Kiddo, this moment, this is me at my most... masochistic.

Bang!

Quite a resemblance, huh.

cheers

Borgia