matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
Thanks for that input, Listener. For the record you were an elder for a long time and a Bethelite, right? I only ask to establish that you speak from experience.
Would you consider it a fair statement that criticism of the organization does not equate to criticism of the average JW?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
Bye, SBF!
FWIW, I don't mind disagreement.
I do know the answer to the request I made of elders. I know the answer first-hand and second-hand from at least eight sources on dozens of occasions. You do not know the answer, yet you chose to answer as if you did know and I did not. I was addressed by you, basically called a "know-it-all", was accused of being critical of JWs in general (which wasn't the case), and I defended my position.
Play the victim, if you like. You were the aggressor, I was the defender. Unless you perceived yourself to be speaking for all JWs, in which case you were defending people I have never attacked.
<--- I won't be doing this at your departure from this thread.
I guess ol' SlimBoyFat will leave the discussion without posting even one single on-topic post, even when asked a direct question pertinent to the topic.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
("They claim to be characterized by love. They are lying.")
Why, SBF, you've unwittingly hit on it!
"They are lying" is the point of the discussion. In fact, that is the point of many of the discussions on here. Your posts often seem to miss the point entirely, but you've captured it here.
Organizationally, when they say they are the sole channel of communication from God, they are lying. When they say disfellowshipping is an act of love, they are lying. When they say they are modeling their religion after the First Century Christians, they are lying.
When you mix political points in with glorying in the virtue of individual JWs who are low on the organizational totem pole as a means of minimizing the damage done to me personally and others personally, my emotional response is to want you to experience firsthand what you speak so glibly about. I don't like wishing that pain on anyone, especially not someone so plainly bereft of knowledge of the subject. Logically, I'd rather you remain ignorant. But when you post such tripe as factual from a position of ignorance my emotional response is rather different.
In this specific case, I was discussing a specific thing they lie about. They lie by calling their use of a "very powerful weapon" of spiritual coercion an act of love.
I asked before, I wonder if you missed it or simply ignored it.
Please answer me this: Do JWs use threat of organizational shunning as a very powerful weapon to coerce conformance, to the end of creating the appearance of unity?
That is the point of the discussion. If this is what JW shunning is really about, then it is purely an act of organizational self-interest, not an act of love.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
Posters are free to post what they like within the guidelines.
Read point 10 a bit closer, SBF.
...please avoid:
10. Posting an off-topic comment.
Your comments of anti-war sentiment were, without any question, far afield of the topic.
While I agreed that I believe Witnesses are worse than the First Century Christian congregation I did not state that as fact. You said I did so. I stated that the practices differ greatly.
The point of stressing the divergence would be clearer to you if you were more familiar with the organization. You are not. Allow me to educate you. They pride themselves, organizationally, on following the model of First Century Christianity. They fail miserably in the attempt. This is one area in which they fail miserably.
Since you are so lacking in knowledge about the organization, perhaps you would be better served asking me why I stressed the difference so fervently instead of incorrectly assuming you already knew why. To point out that 'interpretation' is involved on your part is to spare you the potential embarassment of calling it what it really was, baseless, mean assumption. Everyone interprets everything, but you weren't satisfied with the mild version of prompting you to ASK for an explanation instead of offering one.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
LittleToe,
There are also plenty examples of other fundamentalist organisations/religions that hold similar or worse shunning policies (e.g. Islamic, self-styled "Born Again Christian" groups, etc.).
There are also plenty of examples of organizations/religions that hold no organizational shunning policy whatsoever and that do not claim sole divine rights to all spiritual comprehension.
SBF: Really what I object to on this forum and in this thread is the constant insistance that Witnesses are worse than others in how they treat people.
The Witnesses are worse than MANY in how they treat people who disagree with their doctrine. They are not worse than ALL, and I never suggested they were. They are FAR WORSE than their prolific propagandized advertisements profess.
LittleToe, I know SBF is a friend of yours, but he's a pain in the a--, too, sometimes. And you know it. Especially when it comes to apologizing for a religious ORGANIZATION that he never even really got to know all that well.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
SBF: Don't you think the time issue with the GB not giving you a hearing is a fair point?
No, I do not feel it is a fair point. Because appeal always goes to the next higher level in every credible system of legality I know of. The grounds for my appeal to higher authority was the inability of the lower authority to answer my questions. Therefore, your point is invalid. I didn't just request GB audience. I asked for either GB audience or Service Desk audience. Neither were available.
Instead, I was asked to shut up. That is the exact wording of my brother-in-law's request (Service Overseer) when he and my father (Presiding Overseer) and one other elder stopped by my house one evening to encourage me to come to meetings and pretend to believe.
SBF: You did say the Witnesses are worse than the first century congregation. That is not my reading.
Your reading of what I wrote is interpretive. What I wrote is:
This practice is completely unlike the practice of the First Century Christian congregations.
You supplied your own comparative moralization to the statement. Especially with the research you have done I sincerely doubt that you even question whether what I wrote is true. You took issue with what you believed I meant, not with what I wrote. You have adopted many of the JW logical fallacies.
I believe the Witnesses are worse than First Century Christian congregations. I don't require you to agree and didn't state that as fact. Whether or not you agree with that opinion, it is a fact that the practice of "disfellowshipping" among JWs is unlike the disciplinary practices of First Century Christians. I am sure you agree with that statement.
It was indeed your reading. I did not say what you state I said.
It is a nuisance to keep having these sorts of sideline discussions with you, SBF. The only benefits I see are that it shows lurkers what the org does to people's reasoning ability and keeps the thread bumped.
Please answer me this: Do JWs use threat of organizational shunning as a very powerful weapon to coerce conformance, to the end of creating the appearance of unity?
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
I do not in any way wish to prevent discussion of this topic, SBF. However, I asked for the experience of elders on an issue they would have a great deal of experience with and I got your inexperienced and conjectured opinion delivered as incensed fact, while counseling me on the content of my topic post.
Your lack of experience and lack of propriety were called out publicly. You have no basis for challenging my statement except your admittedly scant experience with JWs, and no experience at all with the organizational elite I spoke specifically about in that portion with which you took issue.
This is a discussion. It just happens not to be your discussion. You are welcome to join in all you like. You are not welcome to turn it into a different discussion, as you are wont to do. You may even feel free to disagree with me, but you are not welcome to step into my thread topic and belittle me with your arrant conjecture.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
I do not suggest that JWs are worse than others in this thread, SBF. Therefore, your assumption on that score must come from within yourself. I suggest they are worse than they claim to be. Much, much worse.
I also suggest that what they publicize as an act of love is actually a very powerful weapon for spiritual coercion, and that they admit as much in their own publications when referring to the Jewish community.
SBF: the innate goodness of many Witnesses actually mitigates much of the usual inhumanity that organization necessarily entails.
I would say, rather, that the innate goodness of many Witnesses successfully masks the horrific consequences awaiting anyone who dares to have integrity after becoming baptized as one. The inhumanity of that organization is mandated from too high for the innate goodness of the masses to have any effect on it, whatsoever. You have a fantastical view of the organization, SBF. The organization in your brain never existed. The individuals you knew surely did exist, but they did not comprise even a flea speck of the organization.
AuldSoul
mike just rang me to say that one of my old elders was chasing me up.. bit of background information my brother and his now wife both baptized fell pregnant before they got married, her mum also a jw paid for an abortion!!!!!
anyway my sister in law told me all about it.
i too told a few people i know not wanting to get them into trouble but i guess i didnt want people to think i was the only bad sheep in the family, anyway this was over 2 years ago.. someone that i told has just recently mentioned it to the elders after two years and now they are chasing me up to see if the rumour is true.. mike told him to mind his own business and dont expect for me to call them back.
It isn't uncommon at all for JWs to be more afraid of the elders than of Jehovah. They have much to fear from the elders. Jehovah hasn't disfellowshipped anyone for several centuries.
matthew 24:48-51 48 but if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, "my master is delaying," and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites.
there is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.. insight on the scriptures, volume 1, p. 787, expelling.
finally, there was shammatta, an entire cutting off from the congregation.
SBF: It's simple. The choice was between a human being who murders for patriotic reasons, or one who does not speak with his mother for religious reasons. I made it clear that I agree with neither, but there is no doubt in my mind which is worse.
It is simple. The choice is between raising distractions from the post topic that are of of a political nature or sticking to the topic. I agree with one of these, and I hope I have made it clear that there is no doubt in my mind which is worse.
YOU raised the off-topic specter of soldiers being worse. In the context of this thread, WHO CARES? This thread is clearly in the section of the forum discussing beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
In my opinion, for someone who has never experienced either to pronounce a doubt-free judgment of comparative severity is pathetic on many levels. You don't know what you are talking about, SBF. You know you haven't experienced these things, yet you lecture those who have.
