Posts by Zana

16

Can a marriage between a catholic and a jw work?

by roberto avon in

this topic was posted yesterday on an italian fb page.

i replied that my personal experience was very positive.

of course i have to admit that my.

Zana

Yes.

I am an agnostic married to a modern, well-balanced (her own words) JW wife. Meaning balance between worldly and spiritual things. And I have the feeling that family is first, WTBS only second or third on her list. Of course there are difficult themes/conversations sometimes (blood issue, education of our children, ...), and with some of these topics there is hardly any compromise possible. But we manage. Loving each other helps a lot. If I were catholic, she would probably feel even better. More common ground.

I imagine a marriage (without children) between a more hardcore JW spouse (WTBS first!) and an UBM could also work out, if the UBM has his/her own no. 1 priority before family, for example a very demanding job or a very time-consuming hobby. But then, what kind of marriage would that be?

67

Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father

by Zana in

my wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.

my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .

sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.

Zana

Childhood milestones:

First comment at the meeting

First public talk

Dress-up in meeting clothes, first briefcase

First field service

Baptism

Ok, interesting. Well, our 3-year-old has been dressed-up already with clothes some JW-friends gave him as a present. Kind of cute and kind of scary at the same time. I will have to think about my position on field service, once my wife picks that up on a regular basis again. Although I believe I will have quite some advantage there, because I will be able to offer a lot more fun stuff to do with my kids when planning on how to spend saturday morning.

Baptism is big of course. I plan on setting the rule that they can decide about that not before their 18th birthday. What opposition will I face here? When somebody pressures them they can always blame me and my rule.

And thanks, jgnat, for the links!

There are two areas you can/should discuss with your wife. The blood doctrine and how that applies to her and your children and the Pedophile problem.

I've done a lot of research on the blood doctrine. Although I couldn't convince my wife to not carry the blood paper thing around, I at least made her accept all the blood fracture stuff and use of blood saving methods. And I made myself very clear that our children will always be allowed to accept blood transfusions no matter what.

On the pedophile subject I haven't really gotten to her. When talking about things like that (strange JW rules/interpretations or any flip-flopping doctrine), she blames humans to be imperfect, even if they are elders or GB. There is bad people everywhere.

Now, lucky72's list (thanks, great post!):

insist that we had friends and associated with kids outside of the organization

Check. Also my wife is ok with this.

allow us to play sports and be involved with extracurricular activities

Check. Also my wife is ok with this.

discuss doctrines. I think this would have made a big difference to me because I had so many doubts and getting a different, well thought out and reasonable perspective from my father, at a young age, would have been enormous. We did occasionally engage in debates when I was in high school, such as evolution vs. creation, but I think I was too far gone by then

Ok. Will keep this in mind.

argue with the fact that witnesses are the only ones who have the truth and that everyone else will die at armageddon. Present evidence of "goodness" in other groups. Although I had many doctrinal questions growing up, I never really questioned that all other religions were evil, so it made my other issues seem secondary. It also made me reject any argument against the witnesses (occasionally presented by my grandparents) as being "apostate". I think if these discussions had started at an early age, in conjunction with a discussion of doctrines, I would have been eagar to entertain alternatives

Ok. Shouldn't be a problem. My wife does see goodness in other groups already, so no opposition there.

insist on college (if that's what your children want) and don't wait to have that discussion until the last minute. Deep down, I really did want to go to college out of high school and I remember wishing at the time that my dad would have insisted. I did eventually go to college during the brief change in policy in the 90's, and it helped give me the confidence to finally get out.

Check. Also my wife is ok with this.

Do not underestimate the peer pressure in the congregation. Because my mom was very active and my dad was an unbeliever, we had several elders take my brother and sister and I "under their wing" and the pressure from them and their families was huge! We felt the pressure from the "good" families because we wanted to be considered "good association", and this influenced my willingness to participate in lots of witness activities enormously, especially because I had no friends outside of the organization.

Ok, haven't thought about that very much. Thanks for pointing it out!

67

Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father

by Zana in

my wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.

my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .

sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.

Zana

When their child isn't hitting the same JW milestones as others ...

Milestones? Care to elaborate?

67

Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father

by Zana in

my wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.

my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .

sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.

Zana

So many answers in a few hours, thank you!

I would advise you, while your kids are so young to learn as much as you can about the doctrines your wife is learning at the KH, and as much as you can about the history of the WT and Jehovah's witnesses.

I do that. In fact one of my friends keeps asking me regularly: "Have you been baptized yet?" No plans to do that of course, but one reason I go to KH meetings with my wife is "to keep the enemies closer". Me knowing about some of the people and the stuff that goes on there also encourages my wife to talk to me about it. I don't want this part of her life being something I am completly shut out of. For example I want her to freely tell me when someone is pressuring her in any kind.

Imagine the possiblity of a future where your child has become a baptized jw and is very active.

Right now I see this as highly unlikely. But reading your cult description, cultBgone, taking even a 1% chance seems irresponsible.

I do not think it is wise for you to attend the KH with your kids. This sends them the message that you approve of what is said there. You need to make your reservatiuons known to your wfie and your kids.

Good point. I haven't thought about this aspect of me attending.

Coersion runs deep in this organization. At the same time, you must approach gently in order not to disturb her peace. A frightened cultist digs in deep.

Fortunately some kind of independant thinking runs deep in my wife, too. And her main motivator in life is love, not fear. Sometimes I wonder why she fell for them in the first place. ... Hm ... actually I think I am going to ask her that tonight.

67

Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father

by Zana in

my wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.

my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .

sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.

Zana

Hello everybody,

My wife and I have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. I was raised as a Lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years. My wife is what I would call a liberal JW (yes, I believe such people exist ) Her personal relationship to Jehovah is very important to her, but WT activities are not the top priority in her life, her family is. She maintains good and healthy relationships with people of different faiths and knows that there are good and bad people everywhere, no matter if they are JWs or not (so do I). She goes to KH an sundays (sometimes I accompany her), but hardly does door-to-door preaching and her last assembly participation is a few years back. We don't celebrate christmas at home, but we do at my parents place (with my wife, too). We don't do individual birthday parties except for some delicious cake, but in order to compensate we invented some kind of "family birthday" with presents and all for everybody.

Sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences Mom and Dad show towards it. Me being an agnostic I cannot offer them a different version of belief or God such as going to church with them instead of KH. So I guess my wife will kind of be the "expert" on that topic for them. I can only encourage them to be open for different beliefs and learn critical thinking. But I am a little afraid that the WTS has probably perfected their approach to children ("Caleb" for example) and how to indoctrinate them. And of course my wife would love to see them becoming JWs one day. I have nothing against a general christian education. There are good stories to be read and good morals can be learned from the bible. But let's say from what I have learned about JWs, they should talk less about Armageddon and obedience and maybe more about Jesus and "love thy neighbor" for example.

So, why am I here? I want my children to be happy! But I understand that being raised in a JW or in a "divided" home can put some serious obstacles on their road to happiness. Where should I be especially careful when letting them be in contact with other JWs? What publications and religious topics will need my special attention in order to be able to offer a different view and counterbalance a possible indoctrination process? Anything else that comes to mind reading my story?

8

How help my JW-fiancée with her trouble with some JW-family-members?

by Zana in

i am 29 years old, not a jw (never been one, never ever gonna be one), but i am engaged to one (27 years old) and we have marriage-plans for the end of this year.

we are getting along more than great, no real troubles about this religious topic in our relationship (so no need to write me some of those run-and-hide-posts .

and we are talking about her family: two sisters are quite dedicated jws, the mother is studying with them, the father died a few years ago and her 4 brothers don't care at all about the jws.

Zana

These are all hard, but very good questions. And I have to admit I still cannot answer them, though I have thought about them quite a bit and we have had some (rather superficial) discussion about the topic. I agree with you that even if I can make her promise not to indoctrinate our future children, this might change when the children will have arrived.

But this is not going to make me change the wedding plans. We have overcome so many obstacles until now (with the help of our great love but also with rational thinking, discussion and action), that I am confident we will manage this one too. I agree though that it should be put on the agenda again before children appear on the horizon.

8

How help my JW-fiancée with her trouble with some JW-family-members?

by Zana in

i am 29 years old, not a jw (never been one, never ever gonna be one), but i am engaged to one (27 years old) and we have marriage-plans for the end of this year.

we are getting along more than great, no real troubles about this religious topic in our relationship (so no need to write me some of those run-and-hide-posts .

and we are talking about her family: two sisters are quite dedicated jws, the mother is studying with them, the father died a few years ago and her 4 brothers don't care at all about the jws.

Zana

how I first tried to "convert" my JW girlfriend (now wife and ex-JW) using facts and reasoning. That was the wrong thing to do (in our case). So I stopped doing it, but we kept talking about religious matters, and she more or less taught herself a quite a few things about the JW religion.

I myself feel, I am the wrong person to try to make her quit the WTS. The trouble is, she would think that I - being an atheist - want her to leave christianity alltogether, which is not the case. I just want her to find out about the differences between believing in God and believing in the WTS. A true christian could explain it better to her than I can.

If she really believes what she says she should believe if Armagedon came tomorrow she would die with you.

Not sure what she believes, but the present seems a lot more important to her than some future Armagedon.

If she doesn't, and has lots of doubts, go into the garden and scream for joy.

Maybe a few doubts, not lots of. I think she just hasn't been sucked in too deeply so far.

If she is unbaptised go into the garden and scream for joy..

She is baptised, but got disfellowshipped recently (see below)

You say her sisters are studying with her mother; are they baptised?

They are, but it is somebody else from the community studying with the mother.

This can only pan out a limited number of ways: She gets sucked into the JW's due to familial pressure and dumps you

Very unlikely.

She (assuming she is baptised) gets disowned by her family at some point for some rule she breaks; Christmas, birthdays, blood transfusions, oral sex. the list is huge and almost unavoidable for someone who is living with a non-believer.

"The family" does not exist. About three quarters are no JWs, so these are more or less fine with all that.

She will lead a troubled existence never believing in it enough to leave you (as she would be told to by any real Witness), never not believing in it enough to get out, always feeling she is failing god or you.

Excellent point. Something I have to think about a little further.

She will "live a lie", only doing JW stuff when family or local JW's are around.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If she is sinning, she does so more or less consciously in front of Jehovah. If some JW finds out or not, is not so important.

Alternately she is believing out of habit or fear of familial abadonment and leading a comparatively normal life with you, with little exposure to meetings or literature will destroy the habit and dull the fear, and she will get the courage to stand upto to her family regardless of concequences.

"Out of habit", that sounds a bit like it. At a certain point in her life she was looking for some strong moral background to live after. Unfortunately the JWs found her at that time.

I suspect you're not as on top of this as you think you are. Therefore my advice remains: either contain this situation now, or end this relationship.

ending the relationship? Not an option... ;) But I will think a little more about this "not being as high above this as I might think I am".

What happenend recently? Good news is, she got disfellowshipped because of fornication (and still not married). And she had a meeting with elders, where she felt they had no right to ask her quite detailed questions about our relationship (which they did, but she refused to answer some of them). Not so good news is, she wants to go back when we are married. Very good news is, that about two weeks later the sisters started talking to her again. First only indirectly (by letter or through her mother), but now everything seems back as usual. What is their "excuse" for not following the shunning-rule? -> "If Jehovah one day can and probably will forgive you, why shouldn't we as sisters be also able to do that?"

All in all I think, that there is still a lot of common sense and normal thinking in the JW-part of this family. The WTS does not come first (as I can read in many threads in this forum), but family comes first (for the mother for sure), and husband/wife/fiancé(e) probably even on top of the list. I am quite sure, that this is not just wishful thinking of me, but I will keep my eyes open for bad signs anyway.

8

How help my JW-fiancée with her trouble with some JW-family-members?

by Zana in

i am 29 years old, not a jw (never been one, never ever gonna be one), but i am engaged to one (27 years old) and we have marriage-plans for the end of this year.

we are getting along more than great, no real troubles about this religious topic in our relationship (so no need to write me some of those run-and-hide-posts .

and we are talking about her family: two sisters are quite dedicated jws, the mother is studying with them, the father died a few years ago and her 4 brothers don't care at all about the jws.

Zana

I am 29 years old, not a JW (never been one, never ever gonna be one), but I am engaged to one (27 years old) and we have marriage-plans for the end of this year. We are getting along more than great, no real troubles about this religious topic in our relationship (so no need to write me some of those run-and-hide-posts ). Quite some time ago now, we made a deal, that neither is she trying to make me a JW (me being an atheist), nor am I trying to get her out of there. I would like to, of course, but well, we have a deal.

Now, what are we talking about? We are talking about us living in fornication in a long-distance-relationship (see each other not more than twice a year). And we are talking about her family: two sisters are quite dedicated JWs, the mother is studying with them, the father died a few years ago and her 4 brothers don't care at all about the JWs. We started doing "it" (absolutely no pressure from my side) about a year ago. She doesn't regret having done it (though of course she is asking Jehovah to understand and one day forgive her) and whenever we meet we, well.. eh.., continue. This shows (and other examples, too) that she is not a 100%-JW. She confessed to her mother and two some elders, not to her sisters though. Her mother is fine as she sees us already well on the path of being bride and groom. A JW-committee decided to not yet disfellowship her and to not announce openly her sin, but told her to take a break of participating actively in her community (or something like that, sounds familiar?) until we are married. She can come back then (which is her wish, too).

On my last visit her sister found out about us living in fornication and told the other sister as well. Now they shun her. My fiancée used to have a very close relationship to her one sister. She feared that reaction and therefore just could not tell her sister the truth before. Now anyway we have the consequences and she is suffering quite a lot. They told her, that they feel they lost her. Not three sisters anymore, only two. I am so happy that she still has her mother and her brothers and a few non-JW-friends as well, but still it's hard as she is a very sensitive person. She feels a lot of guilt but can't really understand, why us two giving love to each other should make her feel so guilty. Any suggestions how I can help her in this situation? She says she can understand her sisters, but I just cannot understand how a religion about a loving and forgiving Christ can produce so much pain and sorrow. I am close to breaking my deal and telling her some proper stuff about the JWs and the differences between serving Jehovah or the WTS (I've done quite a lot of research), but I fear this might just push her into more confusion and trouble.

30

They didn't have to misrepresent anything!

by Lady Lee in

i am just sitting here and shaking my head at the utter stupidity of the wts writers.. while i was at university i took a medical ethics course.

there was a whole chapter on jws and the issue of blood.

we were required to write a paper on one of the chapters.

Zana

A religious basis for the blood rule is probabably sufficient for active JWs. But I could imagine, that it's good for discussions with people who are about to join the cult, if a JW doing field service has some medical arguments in stock, if the blood-topic arises and the possible new sheep is not (yet) willing to accept a few words written in a 2000year old book on such a complex medical topic like transfusions.

58

Please help me, I need advice on dating a JW!!

by Super_Becka in

ok, i'm new here, so please be gentle.

maybe the advice i need is somewhere else in this forum, but i really don't want to have to search for it, i really need some advice now and i don't have the time to sift through all of the other entries here.

so please bear with me and share any and all advice you have, even if you think it's not what i want to hear.

Zana

Enigma One wrote: „Look at how many 1st hand experiences you have read here at JWD. How many have had good experiences....how many bad? Don't you find it mildly alarming not a SINGLE poster has given you a good, upbeat, happy experience?“

Well, that is not really a reliable indicator. The probability that active posters here on this forum have had negative experiences with relationsships to JWs is a lot higher than people posting here who live in a happy relationship with a JW. (I myself have lived in a happy relationship with a JW for over a year now, and of course religious differences cause quite a few problems and discussions now and then, but they do not have a deeper impact than say for example intercultural differences, long-distance-relationships or 10-year-age-differences have on their respective relationships.) Actually my impression of this forum is, that it is quite biased. It is very refreshing to read posts from people like jgnat, who try to give some kind of impartial advice compared to others who just tell Super-Becka to run and hide. I do not want to offend anyone, I have the highest respect for your experiences, but I would not expect 100% impartial advice here.

One question for Super_Becka:
Has your boyfriend told you, why he has not been baptised yet? Or if he has plans to do so in the future?