ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
Two points to extend on what Terry wrote:
Man is partly innovative, but still partly instinctive. We did not innovate our fear of heights or appreciation of rational integer musical tone combinations. Those are wired in from birth.
Secondly - do we all acknowledge that we are debating a non-literal myth (in the case of the biblical Adam & Eve and the Tree of Knowledge)?
Psac?
miami - a bus carrying 32 members of a church group hit a concrete overpass at miami international airport after the driver got lost, killing two elderly people on board and leaving three others critically injured, officials said saturday.. the large, white bus was too tall for the 8-foot-6-inch entrance to the arrivals area, said airport spokesman greg chin.
buses are supposed to go through the departures area, which has a higher ceiling, he said.. chin said the passengers told him they were part of a group of jehovah's witnesses headed to west palm beach.
police said in a news release that the group had chartered the bus to take them to a church convention there-.
For the record, I did say that a very few of the posts were out of line.
Simon only deleted a very few, leaving about 70 posts and 4 pages. I think only a handful had to be deleted.
Most of the posts on this thread were that of reasonable, ordinary, people trying to make sense of this tragedy.
ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
Would Einstein have discovered E=Mc2 if they had not wanted to be like God?
miami - a bus carrying 32 members of a church group hit a concrete overpass at miami international airport after the driver got lost, killing two elderly people on board and leaving three others critically injured, officials said saturday.. the large, white bus was too tall for the 8-foot-6-inch entrance to the arrivals area, said airport spokesman greg chin.
buses are supposed to go through the departures area, which has a higher ceiling, he said.. chin said the passengers told him they were part of a group of jehovah's witnesses headed to west palm beach.
police said in a news release that the group had chartered the bus to take them to a church convention there-.
They do start to look like a legitimate bus tour service who just had a very bad accident.
We are all here probably upset because at heart we care more about the JWs than the JWs care about us.
Very sad.
that interpretation had caused a problem that the governing body was never able to satisfactorily explain.
they needed to be able to show that there has always been a functioning faithful and discreet slave in one form or another ever since.
but they were never able to provide any evidence for the existence of an ongoing 1900 year-old slave prior to the appearance of the watchtower society.
Not even Simon Peter the Rock was faithful and discrete enough until Judge Rutherford came along...
ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
i choose not to accept the genesis account as it's stated in the bible because if i choose it then i am choosing to eliminate other possibilites and ignoring other evidence.
I know, Nancy. We are just using this silly story as a point of discussion. Substitute any other human decision for the same logical argument.
The moral of the story can be this:
People are given everything they NEED with one rule, they break that rule because they don't have everything the WANT and they break that rule with full knowledge of the consequences. That is the best example of free will one can find.
But Psac, I think you are missing my point. The relative morality of believing Satan or God is irrelevant to the issue: Was Adam destined to eat the fruit simply by the way the human brain had been created? In other words - was it inevitable that his curiosity (once aroused by Satan) would eventually get the better of him just because humans are wired that way? Or, his desire to know both good and evil?
The bible is really silent on whether or not this is the case - and if Adam were indeed wired to sin (so to speak), then he did not truly have free will. He might have pondered on it, agitated about it, and so on - but if he was inevitably driven to eat the fruit, then that falls short of having free will.
seriously, if i am going to stay a jw for now, is there anything wrong with donating all for local kindom hall purposes, and simply not donate to the world wide work (wt)?
i mean, won't the local money just go to the kingdom hall expenses (among some other expenses)?
i'm telling you right now, the wt ain't getting my $ until things change!.
What Blondie said.
In reality, they are going to use the money for whatever they damned well please - no matter which box it goes in.
They are learning from the Catholics and the Mother Teresa fundraising.
ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
Terry, are you saying that Einstein cannot be right about religion because he was not a religious professional - like say St. Augustine?
I disagree because she HAD been forewarned by God, so she CHOOSE to evert her free will and side with the "serpent", go against God's command and warning and that is, IMO, the classical example of free will.
But Psac - the apostle Paul seems to indicate that her decision was different than Adam's - in that she really was fooled. He intimates that Adam was NOT fooled.
But I postulate that the bible itself does not ever make the clear statement that both (or even one of them) really had free will. For example, if Adam had been created with enough intelligence to see through the serpent's statement - but also had been created with an unbearable sense of curiosity to find out what would happen even in the face of danger - wouldn't the result have been the same? And would such a case be free will at all, or rather mereley the end result of predictable human behavioral response?
ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
Classicly speaking (judeo-christian speak) - not every decision IS free will, but COULD BE free will.
For example - the New Testament hint that Eve's decision to eat the forbidden fruit was the result of trickery (thus NOT free will), but the suggestion that it COULD have been free will (like Adam's choice) if she had not been fooled.
On the other hand, it brings up the thorny question: Did Eve use FREE WILL in allowing herself to BE fooled? Or was she genuinely fooled without reflective thought - was she even capable of reflective thought on the subject? Or was she just too dumb to figure out the temptation?
So then, can you be TOO DUMB to have free will? Is a severely retarded person capable of free will?
Thinking along these lines is causing me to seriously question the entire religious concept of "free will". I am starting to think (like Einstein did) that it is really just a logical excuse made by religious tradition for God's decision to punish the humans for something they were pretty much destined (and tempted) to do anyway.
ok, here is a small first step toward putting together a thread on this subject.
the problem i had in getting started was how complicated the topic is - how to get it into an understandable form suitable for a discussion thread.
first - einstein was, of course, jewish.
We Wibble with it then, Nancy.
It is fine Wibble.
