Posts by Copernicus

25

You Know's Seared Conscience

by Seeker in

jw
friends

[moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].

when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.

my conscience doesn't bother me.

Copernicus

If I might answer for Seeker -

What's an agnostic tell a child about the death of a loved one or when a child asks, "what happens to someone when they die"?

Hmmmm. . . I see, rather then the simple, truthful answer: no one knows what happens when someone dies (though likely nothingness) we should instead fabricate some complex and unprovable fantasy about life after death. Do I have it right? Isn't that the point of every major religion - substantiation of their particular fantasy? Isn't that why they were invented in the first place?

Yes, I suppose that lying to the child would make him feel so much better. In any case, I imagine that we'll all find our own answer some day.

25

You Know's Seared Conscience

by Seeker in

jw
friends

[moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].

when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.

my conscience doesn't bother me.

Copernicus

Just like Uzzah.

Hey Seeker . . . that was an absolutely PERFECT closer! ROTFL

21

Jehovah, and Watchtower Dishonesty

by Maximus in

jw
friends

here's another example of how the society uses selective quotations.

(see the thread blood, the watchtower and deceit for two other examples, carefully documented.

under the title "is it wrong to pronounce gods name?

Copernicus

Maximus:

Excellent material!

Reading the information in your post actually “hurt” me. The pain stems from the fact that I still have many close friends who are going door to door in good faith – the good faith stemming from their instilled belief that the WTS would never send them forth as sheep to the slaughter bearing material polluted by distortions of truth, if not outright lies. I present my comment in this way as it recalls the many times that I was personally confronted by those I encountered in field service who had a knowledge of the WT’s misleading tactics. The embarrassment and hurt I felt at those times was palpable.

How could an organization which claims to “love” its adherents, subject them to this sort “guilt by association” - so to speak?

I was reminded of the society’s regular referencing of the following scripture:

Isaiah 52:11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.

Often with the implication that the “utensils” being carried today were packaged as the material prepared by the WTS for “holy” service. And the near constant harangues that as those “carrying” the utensils we HAD to keep ourselves morally clean to qualify as ministers in God’s eyes. It appears that those injunctions don’t apply to the org itself with equal force.

The following articles came to mind:

w87 11/1 16 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect?
3 Jehovah’s Witnesses today must similarly be clean as bearers of Jehovah’s “utensils.” The apostle Paul quoted Isaiah’s words and applied them to Christians of his day. . . Some deceive themselves and others into believing that their lives are clean and acceptable to God, when in reality such is not the case. They practice a form of hypocrisy.

Well, now we all can see the form of hypocrisy practiced by the WTS in their misrepresentations of fact.

w87 11/1 20 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***
16 Interestingly, a circuit overseer in France observes: “Some brothers are deceived because they lack accurate knowledge. . . Having this accurate knowledge, who would become so curious as to pay any attention to apostate mouthings? May no man “delude you with persuasive arguments”! False religious propaganda from any source should be avoided like poison! Really, since our Lord has used “the faithful and discreet slave” to convey to us “sayings of everlasting life,” why should we ever want to look anywhere else?—John 6:68.

I do agree that “false religious propaganda from any source” is poison. The WT and AWAKE being no exception. The self-aggrandizement evident in the direct statement that THEY are being used by a supposed God of truth to disseminate anything, is sickening.

Will we ever see the day when these men will be held accountable for their own words?

20

Sin, Mercy and the Watchtower Way

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

its strange now how i find such a huge contrast between the words of the gospel accounts of jesus and the interpretation of those words by the wts.

to me it seems there is little of the gospel jesus in the wts attitude to sinning and to sinners.. i recently reread lukes account of when jesus went to the home of the pharisee, simon.

during the meal a woman of the city, a sinner, bathed jesus feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.

Copernicus

Wolfy:

You’re in a difficult situation, and it’s going to be hard to work it out. Far be it from me to tell another man how to live his life, but if you’re serious about investigating the “truth” you owe it to yourself to do some reading and gain some information from outside of the Tower’s sphere of control. Crisis of Conscience, Apocalypse Delayed, and Gentile Times Reconsidered, are all readily available basic primers for understanding both sides of a complicated story. Then you can truly make an educated choice.

In the end – there is no “proof.” It just isn’t that easy. Since your whole family is involved, it may simply come down to keeping the peace by making a surface acceptance of the religion and maintaining some token involvement. You have to do what works for you, and balance that with what’s best for your family.

On the other hand, if real truth is an issue in your life, and you have a personal conscience that chaffs under the Society’s teachings and treatment of others, you may be in for a rough road.

In any case, make your decision on what YOU believe. The bible says that takes accurate knowledge and the Tower can provide you enough of that to see things as they are. After that, it’s all faith and blind belief. That wasn’t enough for me.

Best of luck, and keep us posted. . . .

Copernicus

40

No More Harboring Private Ideas!

by RationalWitness in

jw
friends

just finished reading the august 1, 2001 watchtower.

the second study article is entitled how to make your advancement manifest.

well, after quoting ephesians 4:11-14, heres what paragraphs 8 and 9 advise:first, since oneness is to be observed, a mature christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned.

Copernicus

Wasasister:

While I understand your thought, I don’t think we’d have to be “in the know” to recognize the motivator here – it’s fear. Fear of being challenged by an ever more aware and knowledgeable flock, fear of the domino effect once their authority is broached, fear of being unable to contain the growing independence among free thinkers.

Why control the group directly (they don’t really have the means to do so) when you can force individuals to control themselves, and view everyone else with suspicion? Much neater that way.

I’ve said before that I think that not much is of concern to the GB. They’ve got their hide-a-way secured, and they can lay back and let the chips fall without damage to themselves. So why should they care? They’ve left to others the job of dealing with the consequences of their years of nasty little works.

When I see stuff like this, I think I can see that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Garbage like this article is damage control, pure and simple. I wonder how many more fingers they’ve left to stick in the dike?

18

Tale of a Black Congregation Part I

by TMS in

jw
friends

exposure to two distinct cultures has impacted my life.

first, as a young blonde lad from the pacific northwest, i was catapulted into the hispanic culture of the rio grande valley in 1961. on the border, by the sea was the chamber of commerce slogan, but the change in venue was more dramatic than simply moving from a land of mountains and douglas fir to beaches, bougainvilla, grapefruit and beaches.

it was the warmth and closeness of the mexican families, the new sounds and flavors and , yes, the salon del reino that intrigued and humbled this know-it-all young pioneer.

Copernicus

No Fred, no green "siters" in my congregation.

There are a number of the color stupid though, so I'm sure you'd blend right in. In fact, you might become their local "star", LOL.

40

No More Harboring Private Ideas!

by RationalWitness in

jw
friends

just finished reading the august 1, 2001 watchtower.

the second study article is entitled how to make your advancement manifest.

well, after quoting ephesians 4:11-14, heres what paragraphs 8 and 9 advise:first, since oneness is to be observed, a mature christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned.

Copernicus

Articles like this one just flat piss me off, and are half the reason I’ll never return to a KH.

It’s so typical of a high control group like the dubs to use this approach. Rather then just acknowledge that in the area of religion (as in all areas of human endeavor), it’s perfectly EXPECTED and NORMAL that one would have internal questions and doubt, they turn it around on the poor sap believer by making them guilty of a lack of faith for doing so. Then follows all the guilt and self-chastisement for ever having had the audacity to mentally question the bullshit you’re constantly being fed. Not to mention, the effect it could be having on your personal relationship with God. His having endowed us with the ability for independent thought is apparently one of Jehovah’s greatest misgivings – or so the WT would have us think.

I never cease to be amazed at the confidence they have in their own propaganda, and the mental grip it holds over their followers. How else could they expect for a moment not to have the brother presenting such trash laughed off the platform for his efforts?

Yes, rather then just deal with the perfectly justifiable reasons that many JW’s have doubts and harbor private ideas, they make it an issue of loyalty. Jesus said, “for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” How then could anyone be coerced by blatant mind control (such as this article) into restraining themselves from verbalizing legitimate feelings and questions?

In fact, how can a Christian be in oneness with fellow believers if he only believes or accepts a certain part of “the faith”?

It appears the unquestioning belief is now formally being demanded by the WTS. This is astonishing in light of a WT article of several months ago that admitted there where MANY things they didn’t know. The siege mentality taking over in Brooklyn is becoming worse then I ever could have imagined.

I remember when I first voiced (quietly and carefully) the fact that I harbored serious personal doubts about the org’s teachings and veracity. The response? They told me that if I kept my mouth shut, they’d make be an elder. Hmmmmmm. . . what does that tell you?

There are many elders in this org who know that half the society’s stuff is pure bullshit, and yet for their own selfish reasons they continue to garnish it with a little sprig of parsley and serve it up as “spiritual food.”

It’s enough to make me wish there was a burning hell.

And I too am looking forward to observing YK’s application of this clear direction. The noose gets ever tighter, doesn’t it?

5

help with friend from Russia.

by uncle_onion in

jw
friends

i have been e mailing a ministerial servant in russia.

he came across my website and he had a lot of questions.

we have spoken a few times on the phone and i have invited him to the uk so that we can meet.

Copernicus

Uncle-O:

I am impressed with your generosity! I wish I knew of something that could help. I went through a similar situation a few years ago with a Witness in South Africa. As it turned out, there was no real way to escape that country. It seems as if the most troubled spots in the world want to hold their citizens’ hostage. Perhaps they fear mass migrations of those willing and able to leave.

Also, I visited your web page once again. Nice job, very convincing. Reading the replies from bethel made me sick. They reminded me of the form letters one often gets from bureaucracies here in the states who have no intention whatsoever of addressing any real concerns brought before them. Their primary tactic is to simply exchange nonsensical correspondence (ignoring all the salient points) until the aggrieved party gives up (in frustration) and goes away. It’s a common ploy, although not one that we would expect to see used by God’s “truth loving organization.”

I tell you, their own dishonesty will be their eventual downfall. It is so good to see their stuff displayed on the net for the crap it is.

15

Latest letter from the Elders.

by uncle_onion in

jw
friends

i dont know if some of you remember but about 8 months ago i recieved a telephone call from the luvvin bruvvers and they wanted to talk to me re my "apostate" veiws.

i told them that i would take legal action against them and to only contact me through letter.

i recieved this today.

Copernicus

. . . we have a copy of the letter the Society sent you dated June 5, 2000. We have nothing further to offer on this subject; some matters have to be left in Jehovah's hands awaiting clarification in his time.

Sure. . . go ahead, blame Jehovah. If he’s supposedly so willing to clarify things, why let them become so confused in the first place?

. . . you and your family can only benefit from being at the congregation meetings, and sharing the interchange of encouragement that they bring. Hebrews 10: 24,25

Gggggaaaggggg me with a spoon! I wish I had a nickel for every mile the WTS has milked from the only scripture in the bible that mentions meetings.

. . . they are genuinely concerned over your spiritual welfare. . .

Had to comment on this one, as I had a visit from my own gang recently. Massive does of guilt were served up by the ladle full. Fortunately me and mine are immune. We could only sit there and wonder about it all. Plenty of bible verses that had no bearing whatsoever on our situation – go figure. I just can’t believe I used to feed people the same bullshit. Now I understand why they had that dull, glazed over looked in their eyes, lol.

9

money making organization

by bless2u in

jw
friends

is wt really god organization or moneymaking oraganization?.

wt is using jws as a slave to sell their little magazines.wt is making easy money from the jws and don't have to pays to the slaves for doing hard works.

what a profitable business!

Copernicus

How insightful on your part.