Great post Skimmer! Sounds as if you touched a sensitive nerve with YK, but you had me laughing through all of it. But before I buy in, I’d like some biblical support for your 2029 chronology. I’m sure if you look hard enough you can find some, LOL
Copernicus
JoinedPosts by Copernicus
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21
Toppled Tower
by Skimmer in(headline) toppled tower.
(dateline) october 2029, brooklyn, new york; associated internet media news service.
after a century and a half of preaching and publishing, the wtbts (watchtower bible and tract society) has closed its doors.. the group was started in the 1870s with most of its doomsday doctrines borrowed from the second adventists, another american-born religion of the 19th century.
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You Know's Seared Conscience
by Seeker in[moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].
when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.
my conscience doesn't bother me.
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Copernicus
Joel:
But hey, you are no different than any of us. We all want what’s good for us to be truth, it just seldom is.
I enjoyed your thought here my friend. . . and the my own voice of experience suggests that, unfortunately, you’re right: “it just seldom is.”
As in the case of Rex’s postulation of a child’s question about death, for instance:
Choices: Too young to understand: Tell the child that the person has gone to be with God. Old enough to understand: No one except God knows if "...." they accepted our Lord as their savior.
Gone to be with God? Isn’t that a rather nebulous statement? And isn’t it potentially contradicted by your second allusion, that “being” with God is conditional, based on the acceptance or rejection of some alleged savior?I suppose than we can safely say that the vast majority of mankind, not being practicing Christians by virtue of birthplace, racial bias, or preference, do not fall under your God’s selective umbrella of salvation. They never will go to "be with God." How incomprehensive of a God of love – wouldn’t you say? How would this be explained to your hypothetical child? By expressing more palliatives?
Both factual.
Please Rex, take a moment to look up factual in your dictionary. Though a tenet (eg: dogma) of your faith, what you propose is simply supposition, not fact.
Rhetoric upon line of rhetoric. You have to get in your "myths & fairy tales", don't you? See my reply to Rochelle.
Rhetoric is simply the skilled use of speech or language. Is there some crime or sin inherent in that ability? Or is your problem more simply in that you’re lacking this ability yourself? Since it is YOU who continually resorts to "myths & fairy tales" as though fact, expecting others to share your delusions and attacking them if they don’t, you shouldn’t be surprised to be challenged on that issue.
You are going to be one surprised ridiculer when you here that final trump sound.
I wish a had a nickel for every time this empty threat was uttered by some fundy. I ridicule the ridiculous Rex. Why? Because it’s deserving of it.
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You Know's Seared Conscience
by Seeker in[moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].
when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.
my conscience doesn't bother me.
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Copernicus
If I might answer for Seeker -
What's an agnostic tell a child about the death of a loved one or when a child asks, "what happens to someone when they die"?
Hmmmm. . . I see, rather then the simple, truthful answer: no one knows what happens when someone dies (though likely nothingness) we should instead fabricate some complex and unprovable fantasy about life after death. Do I have it right? Isn't that the point of every major religion - substantiation of their particular fantasy? Isn't that why they were invented in the first place?
Yes, I suppose that lying to the child would make him feel so much better. In any case, I imagine that we'll all find our own answer some day.
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You Know's Seared Conscience
by Seeker in[moving this to its own thread so as to avoid hijacking the original thread to a new topic.].
when i pointed out how you know was associating with apostates by being here, as the society has pointed out, he responded:.
my conscience doesn't bother me.
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Copernicus
Just like Uzzah.
Hey Seeker . . . that was an absolutely PERFECT closer! ROTFL
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Jehovah, and Watchtower Dishonesty
by Maximus inhere's another example of how the society uses selective quotations.
(see the thread blood, the watchtower and deceit for two other examples, carefully documented.
under the title "is it wrong to pronounce gods name?
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Copernicus
Maximus:
Excellent material!
Reading the information in your post actually “hurt” me. The pain stems from the fact that I still have many close friends who are going door to door in good faith – the good faith stemming from their instilled belief that the WTS would never send them forth as sheep to the slaughter bearing material polluted by distortions of truth, if not outright lies. I present my comment in this way as it recalls the many times that I was personally confronted by those I encountered in field service who had a knowledge of the WT’s misleading tactics. The embarrassment and hurt I felt at those times was palpable.
How could an organization which claims to “love” its adherents, subject them to this sort “guilt by association” - so to speak?
I was reminded of the society’s regular referencing of the following scripture:
Isaiah 52:11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean; get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, YOU who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.
Often with the implication that the “utensils” being carried today were packaged as the material prepared by the WTS for “holy” service. And the near constant harangues that as those “carrying” the utensils we HAD to keep ourselves morally clean to qualify as ministers in God’s eyes. It appears that those injunctions don’t apply to the org itself with equal force.
The following articles came to mind:
w87 11/1 16 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect?
3 Jehovah’s Witnesses today must similarly be clean as bearers of Jehovah’s “utensils.” The apostle Paul quoted Isaiah’s words and applied them to Christians of his day. . . Some deceive themselves and others into believing that their lives are clean and acceptable to God, when in reality such is not the case. They practice a form of hypocrisy.
Well, now we all can see the form of hypocrisy practiced by the WTS in their misrepresentations of fact.
w87 11/1 20 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***
16 Interestingly, a circuit overseer in France observes: “Some brothers are deceived because they lack accurate knowledge. . . Having this accurate knowledge, who would become so curious as to pay any attention to apostate mouthings? May no man “delude you with persuasive arguments”! False religious propaganda from any source should be avoided like poison! Really, since our Lord has used “the faithful and discreet slave” to convey to us “sayings of everlasting life,” why should we ever want to look anywhere else?—John 6:68.I do agree that “false religious propaganda from any source” is poison. The WT and AWAKE being no exception. The self-aggrandizement evident in the direct statement that THEY are being used by a supposed God of truth to disseminate anything, is sickening.
Will we ever see the day when these men will be held accountable for their own words?
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Sin, Mercy and the Watchtower Way
by Thirdson inits strange now how i find such a huge contrast between the words of the gospel accounts of jesus and the interpretation of those words by the wts.
to me it seems there is little of the gospel jesus in the wts attitude to sinning and to sinners.. i recently reread lukes account of when jesus went to the home of the pharisee, simon.
during the meal a woman of the city, a sinner, bathed jesus feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.
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Copernicus
Wolfy:
You’re in a difficult situation, and it’s going to be hard to work it out. Far be it from me to tell another man how to live his life, but if you’re serious about investigating the “truth” you owe it to yourself to do some reading and gain some information from outside of the Tower’s sphere of control. Crisis of Conscience, Apocalypse Delayed, and Gentile Times Reconsidered, are all readily available basic primers for understanding both sides of a complicated story. Then you can truly make an educated choice.
In the end – there is no “proof.” It just isn’t that easy. Since your whole family is involved, it may simply come down to keeping the peace by making a surface acceptance of the religion and maintaining some token involvement. You have to do what works for you, and balance that with what’s best for your family.
On the other hand, if real truth is an issue in your life, and you have a personal conscience that chaffs under the Society’s teachings and treatment of others, you may be in for a rough road.
In any case, make your decision on what YOU believe. The bible says that takes accurate knowledge and the Tower can provide you enough of that to see things as they are. After that, it’s all faith and blind belief. That wasn’t enough for me.
Best of luck, and keep us posted. . . .
Copernicus
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No More Harboring Private Ideas!
by RationalWitness injust finished reading the august 1, 2001 watchtower.
the second study article is entitled how to make your advancement manifest.
well, after quoting ephesians 4:11-14, heres what paragraphs 8 and 9 advise:first, since oneness is to be observed, a mature christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned.
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Copernicus
Wasasister:
While I understand your thought, I don’t think we’d have to be “in the know” to recognize the motivator here – it’s fear. Fear of being challenged by an ever more aware and knowledgeable flock, fear of the domino effect once their authority is broached, fear of being unable to contain the growing independence among free thinkers.
Why control the group directly (they don’t really have the means to do so) when you can force individuals to control themselves, and view everyone else with suspicion? Much neater that way.
I’ve said before that I think that not much is of concern to the GB. They’ve got their hide-a-way secured, and they can lay back and let the chips fall without damage to themselves. So why should they care? They’ve left to others the job of dealing with the consequences of their years of nasty little works.
When I see stuff like this, I think I can see that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. Garbage like this article is damage control, pure and simple. I wonder how many more fingers they’ve left to stick in the dike?
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Tale of a Black Congregation Part I
by TMS inexposure to two distinct cultures has impacted my life.
first, as a young blonde lad from the pacific northwest, i was catapulted into the hispanic culture of the rio grande valley in 1961. on the border, by the sea was the chamber of commerce slogan, but the change in venue was more dramatic than simply moving from a land of mountains and douglas fir to beaches, bougainvilla, grapefruit and beaches.
it was the warmth and closeness of the mexican families, the new sounds and flavors and , yes, the salon del reino that intrigued and humbled this know-it-all young pioneer.
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Copernicus
No Fred, no green "siters" in my congregation.
There are a number of the color stupid though, so I'm sure you'd blend right in. In fact, you might become their local "star", LOL.
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No More Harboring Private Ideas!
by RationalWitness injust finished reading the august 1, 2001 watchtower.
the second study article is entitled how to make your advancement manifest.
well, after quoting ephesians 4:11-14, heres what paragraphs 8 and 9 advise:first, since oneness is to be observed, a mature christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned.
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Copernicus
Articles like this one just flat piss me off, and are half the reason I’ll never return to a KH.
It’s so typical of a high control group like the dubs to use this approach. Rather then just acknowledge that in the area of religion (as in all areas of human endeavor), it’s perfectly EXPECTED and NORMAL that one would have internal questions and doubt, they turn it around on the poor sap believer by making them guilty of a lack of faith for doing so. Then follows all the guilt and self-chastisement for ever having had the audacity to mentally question the bullshit you’re constantly being fed. Not to mention, the effect it could be having on your personal relationship with God. His having endowed us with the ability for independent thought is apparently one of Jehovah’s greatest misgivings – or so the WT would have us think.
I never cease to be amazed at the confidence they have in their own propaganda, and the mental grip it holds over their followers. How else could they expect for a moment not to have the brother presenting such trash laughed off the platform for his efforts?
Yes, rather then just deal with the perfectly justifiable reasons that many JW’s have doubts and harbor private ideas, they make it an issue of loyalty. Jesus said, “for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” How then could anyone be coerced by blatant mind control (such as this article) into restraining themselves from verbalizing legitimate feelings and questions?
In fact, how can a Christian be in oneness with fellow believers if he only believes or accepts a certain part of “the faith”?
It appears the unquestioning belief is now formally being demanded by the WTS. This is astonishing in light of a WT article of several months ago that admitted there where MANY things they didn’t know. The siege mentality taking over in Brooklyn is becoming worse then I ever could have imagined.I remember when I first voiced (quietly and carefully) the fact that I harbored serious personal doubts about the org’s teachings and veracity. The response? They told me that if I kept my mouth shut, they’d make be an elder. Hmmmmmm. . . what does that tell you?
There are many elders in this org who know that half the society’s stuff is pure bullshit, and yet for their own selfish reasons they continue to garnish it with a little sprig of parsley and serve it up as “spiritual food.”
It’s enough to make me wish there was a burning hell.
And I too am looking forward to observing YK’s application of this clear direction. The noose gets ever tighter, doesn’t it?
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help with friend from Russia.
by uncle_onion ini have been e mailing a ministerial servant in russia.
he came across my website and he had a lot of questions.
we have spoken a few times on the phone and i have invited him to the uk so that we can meet.
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Copernicus
Uncle-O:
I am impressed with your generosity! I wish I knew of something that could help. I went through a similar situation a few years ago with a Witness in South Africa. As it turned out, there was no real way to escape that country. It seems as if the most troubled spots in the world want to hold their citizens’ hostage. Perhaps they fear mass migrations of those willing and able to leave.
Also, I visited your web page once again. Nice job, very convincing. Reading the replies from bethel made me sick. They reminded me of the form letters one often gets from bureaucracies here in the states who have no intention whatsoever of addressing any real concerns brought before them. Their primary tactic is to simply exchange nonsensical correspondence (ignoring all the salient points) until the aggrieved party gives up (in frustration) and goes away. It’s a common ploy, although not one that we would expect to see used by God’s “truth loving organization.”
I tell you, their own dishonesty will be their eventual downfall. It is so good to see their stuff displayed on the net for the crap it is.