Posts by Copernicus

40

Are These the Last Days?

by individual in

jw
friends

does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days?

all down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are jws just an extension of this?

for me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book signs of the times revisited says "as more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located.

Copernicus

Right on cue Larc. . .

Friday, how I love our little debates. . .

Prove that you have RESPECT for the Bible.

I said I did, therefore I do. If that’s insufficient for you, you’ll have to live with it. Of course, I guess I could join you and the other self-ordained prognosticators here and resort to posting my own ramblings and musings as to what portions of it mean. . . would that be an indicator of respect in you eyes? By the way, wasn’t it the Pharisees who kept demanding proofs? Hopefully the parallels won’t escape you.

I suppose that you include me in with those who “claim unqualified success in unlocking [the Bible’s] secrets.”

Wow. . . you caught that huh? And I thought I was being subtle.

Prove to me and all other onlookers that I’ve misinterpreted Daniel 11:35.

More proof? ROTFL! Prove to YOU and ALL onlookers? Prove what? That you’ve taken something written thousands of years ago and superimposed it over a set of contemporaneous circumstances that appear to you as having some connection with it? Am I getting warm yet?

Daniel 11:35 makes reference to “the time of the end” (which, in a way, is what this thread was originally about). Before I answer your questions, prove to me and all onlookers that we’re in this specified time period. Unless you can do so, your argument and your interpretation is moot, and undeserving of further comment. Considering the assertions you’ve made, that particular burden of proof falls on you. And I’ll be right here waiting. . .

So we don’t lose the moment. . . let’s repeat:

You said:

So you see those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings are not of the apostate sort, but are Bible believing, genuine Christians.

To which I responded:

Yes, somehow “those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings” are those who have absolutely no influence whatsoever on policy, or the levers of power. How they “get this ball rolling” has yet to be explained.

Yes, how DO they get the ball rolling? Do tell. Will it be that old standby, divine intervention? That must be it, since nothing short of that would be the least efficacious. Yes, God is going to intervene in behalf of all those “Bible believing, genuine Christians” like you Friday. It that it?

40

Are These the Last Days?

by individual in

jw
friends

does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days?

all down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are jws just an extension of this?

for me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book signs of the times revisited says "as more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located.

Copernicus

Yowif:

You have no insight into the proper meaning of the Bible, although you are able to quote it right and left.

So, you’re comparing me to the WTS now? How unfair! That one really hurt Friday!

“Empty speculation”? How would a person that has obviously and completely lost God’s spirit (assuming that you ever was in touch with it) know one way or another if what I said was empty speculation?

I guess it was all those years I spent listening to the Society’s empty speculations that so finely attuned me so as to be able to recognize it when I hear it. Of course, like you, they had God’ spirit too. Come to think of it, it’s amazing that the plethora of self proclaimed scriptural exegetes on this board couldn’t agree on what day of the week it is, doctrinally speaking. Yes, this “spirit” you speak of is certainly a unifying force. I see that now.

Too, don’t you think that it’s rather presumptuous as well as audacious of yourself to become concerned over a conversion that is going on between another poster and I in the way that you have here?

Don’t you think it’s rather presumptuous as well as audacious of yourself to speak for God, interpreting his thoughts and speaking with such affected assurance?

I can well imagine how Individual perhaps feels with you thinking that he could be so easily fooled UNLESS you entered the picture in his behalf in order that the day might be saved. We call persons like you loud mouths, in my neck of the woods.

Yes, and in my neck of the woods we call people like you BS artists.

I have no “inside information” such as our most gracious friend Copernicus spoke of.

Read: I have no information period. Everything I say is the product of my own imagination. Nothing more.

First of all, it must be admitted that the Society does have some misunderstandings on some rather major doctrinal matter, don’t you agree.

Ahhhhh. . . Friday, you’ve ALWAYS been the master of understatement!

Secondly, you probably noted what Copernicus said: “The Society will make changes. . .

Don’t pay any attention to me, Individual, Friday says I don’t have God’s spirit.

You will notice that it speaks of a “refining work” that is foretold to take place amongst the true worshipers of God, and such is to be accomplished BEFORE the “time of the end” begins.

Hmmmm. . . isn’t this from the book of You Know, chapter 4,123 verse 789? I’m sure you’re aware I’ve agreed with YK on many of these points, from the perspective of logical apologia. Nothing more.

So you see those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings are not of the apostate sort, but are Bible believing, genuine Christians.

Yes, somehow “those who get the ball rolling so as to affect a needed change in the Society’s teachings” are those who have absolutely no influence whatsoever on policy, or the levers of power. How they “get this ball rolling” has yet to be explained.

Individual, if I offended you in any way by injecting myself into your exchange with Friday, I apologize. He and I have a bit of history together that tends to flare up at times. I’ve no doubt you’re quite capable of drawing your own conclusions from what’s been said here, and it wasn’t my intent to suggest otherwise or to sway you in any way.

I do have respect for the bible, it is my patience with those who claim unqualified success in unlocking it’s secrets (such as they are) that has worn a bit thin.

40

Are These the Last Days?

by individual in

jw
friends

does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days?

all down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are jws just an extension of this?

for me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book signs of the times revisited says "as more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located.

Copernicus

I thought his comments are thought provoking!

Jay – don’t feed the animals! They’ll only want more, ha, ha.

Has anybody but me noticed the IQ upgrade in Friday’s posts in this thread? Either he’s taking “brain lightening” or he’s got himself a ghostwriter with the initials YK.

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

Copernicus

I dare say if you can count 10 folks in your circuit who could carry on the conversation that has been going on here.

JT: 10 folks? Just how BIG is your circuit, ha, ha? Enjoyed your down to earth comments.

And Farkel: thanks for the info on Stafford. It’ll save me the $1.5 his book cost to read it and come to the same conclusion. I thought I’d heard you or someone talk about this before, but couldn’t quite remember the details.

Hey buddy, what happened to taking a break?

40

Are These the Last Days?

by individual in

jw
friends

does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days?

all down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are jws just an extension of this?

for me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book signs of the times revisited says "as more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located.

Copernicus

Yes, these things ARE the explanation that has been given by the Society. But, those thoughts are due to undergo refinements.

Yadrif:

Please substantiate this statement. Individual doesn’t know you like we do, and he/she may mistake the sense of “inside information” about changes implied in your words as more then what it is, eg: empty speculation.

There are a few scholars of the Bible that know that the Greek word “seismos” (Matthew 24:7), translated as “earthquakes” in the great majority of versions, has no reference at all to that which today is commonly referred to as “seismic” activity.

A few scholars? Amazing how “god’s channel” just doesn’t pick up on these grammatical things. And yet we’re supposed to continue to recognize their mantle of authority? Several of the other things you mentioned have been floating around for years. The Society will make changes because the intrusion of reality will force even those lords of denial to make unavoidable adjustments in the propaganda. You now how pesky that new light can be.

About Fred Hall - just ignore him Individual, pretend he's some kind meaningless background noise (which he is). He's not only blind, but stupid too.

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

Copernicus

Hello Dan:

I concur with much of what you said, and I want you to know that I am not trying to be on display here.

Good. Then we can put that question aside and attempt to stay focused on the content of your posts.

I have certain points I want to make, and I choose to communicate them in a certain way. I actually love the life of the mind (the bios theoretikos) and think that it can be used to help others see the light of truth.

How you choose to communicate them is for you to decide. I do know that when I have something to say, I like to state it in my own terms also. And it is true that we no doubt have a wide, though invisible audience, some of who may be benefiting from this sort of discourse in ways I wouldn’t foresee. Complimentarily speaking, that you love the life of the mind is self-evident, ha, ha. That it could be used to help others see a certain point of view, true or otherwise, is patently possible.

In the long run, I do not think that it really matters how I write here.

I think that this statement has a broad-based application for ALL of us.

In answer to my question, where do you go from here? You said:

I will continue to stick with JWs and wait upon God YHWH to act (Micah 7). I see no need at this point to cease communing with JWs or take issue with their doctrinal framework as a whole. I am confident that positive changes will take place in the next few years. But that is another story.

I applaud, within definite limits, anyone acting in good faith who finds strength in their convictions – even if I don’t share them. You’ve given us very little personal information. I wonder how long you’ve been a Witness? There is (or so it seems to me) a peculiar evolution to the process for a thinking person. You may, or may not find it to be so in your case.

Please humor my curiosity when I ask at what point would you cease communing with the JW’s and finally take issue with their doctrinal framework? As far as positive changes go . . I myself would characterize positive changes as the dissolution of the Sanhedrin (GB) as we know it, and along with that an abandonment of the Talmudic mindset that has so mired the organization. I’ve said elsewhere that the org is infinitely more comparable to first century Judaism, with all its emphasis on works, rules, and punishment, then Christianity with its emphasis on the personal development of a relationship with God, and outward manifestations of the kingly law of love.

I’d be interested in your thoughts on this matter.

Finally, you mentioned Greg Stafford in your response to Farkel. I’m not familiar with him (to any degree) or his “magisterial work” but I do seem to recall that he made a complete fool of himself on talk.origiens by attempting to defend the WTS’specious “scholarship.” How do YOU live with that aspect of things? Please recall my argument via “sum totals.”

Hoping you’ll expand on these points. . .

Copernicus

40

Are These the Last Days?

by individual in

jw
friends

does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days?

all down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are jws just an extension of this?

for me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book signs of the times revisited says "as more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located.

Copernicus

Do I still believe that we’re in the “last days” and that Armageddon is imminent?

In a word, no.

The whole concept of “signs” during “these” last days is part of the JW circular reasoning on end times. They have a (demonstrably flawed) chronology that points (as of its last revision) to the first part of the 20th century as the start of Christ’s presence, and hence the last days. Since from their perspective we are now very well along into this period, there MUST be the accompanying signs. Why? Because signs would appear during the last days, right? And on and on it goes.

So much has been said elsewhere about Jesus’ description in Matthew 24 about the end of the aion (age) and the supposed events that enjoin it that it becomes redundant to discuss it further in this forum; there is so much definitive material available on the net if you’d care to do some research. I will say that the attempt by the JW’s to take what they believed (and understandably so) was evidence of such signs: World War I, the flu pandemic, etc. – and extend them throughout the entire 20th century and on into the next is ludicrous at best, and manipulative apologetics at worst.

Clearly, many of the signs spoken of are alleged to have found a cataclysmic fulfillment in the first century. To speak of significant “signs” occurring in our day that are in fact indistinguishable from the ebb and flow of any period in history is a bit of a reach. This has simply been a tactic used by the WTS to maintain an impetus for their magazine selling endeavors. As Amazing said – “they are a fraud religion par excellence.”

Jesus repeatedly warned his disciples to keep on the watch, and that they wouldn’t know the hour of his coming. This would seem to preclude that his “presence” could be ascertained by the appearance of any signs. He himself said that life would be going on normally and that his arrival would be unexpected by most.

Ahhhh. . . but I’ve already said more then I ever wanted to on this subject. As with every other bible topic of any imagined importance, the whole narrative is so shot through with double talk and contradictions, that any real meaning (if it has any) is lost in the mix. What’s the point of coming to earth, with the proclaimed purpose of presenting a message from God, and then talking in gibberish?

Forget about the last days. If you’re past 40 you ARE in your own “time of the end” (the proof signs of this are wrinkles, constipation, etc, ha, ha). Enjoy life and cherish the moments that make it worth living right now.

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

Copernicus

Hi Dan:

Thanks for the personal response, as I can see that you’re pretty inundated here.

I must admit that free expression, for the most part, does obtain in this forum. But I find that some participants in this lovely discussion area do not want me to "freely" express myself in the way that I see fit.

Yes, it does obtain, and it was good of you to acknowledge this fact as certainly freedom of expression is both a goal worthy of aspiration, and something long denied to many of us by the org that you defend. As far as your ability to do so in a way that you see fit, no one can stop you, but if you want to elicit an open, bilateral discourse (if that is your intention) I think you’ll have to be less erudite, and more revealing as to what you agenda is, exactly.

Your original question:

Are those who have left God's organization and Jehovah God Himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

Your statement itself is littered with bias (and indicative of a closed mind) in your base assumption that “God” does in fact have an organization, and you are part of it. Things like this present a challenge to those here who’ve come to conclusions other then your own, often through very painful personal experience. Are they now more open-minded as a result? I would again say yes. I, for instance, was never more closed-minded then when I was a Witness and we’ve enjoyed a number of threads that explore the psychological basis for this fact.

If those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against Jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some Olympian perspective, I beg to differ.

You are free to differ, while bearing in mind that freedom is a sword that cuts both ways. Jehovah’s “people” have inspired a number of “vile utterances” – some with good cause, others as vituperation; as is the case with any group as polarized, vis-à-vis society, as the Witnesses are.

While JW opposers can use negative and even profane language to "express" themselves, poor old Duns cannot even employ philosophical "jargon" without being maligned. I can just imagine what poor Socrates went through when he tried to help people see that they were ignorant as he walked among the clouds. My, oh my!

I think Socrates would agree, dear Duns, that your use of jargon must be selected to enlighten, not obfuscate (intentionally or otherwise) if you want to avoid being grossly challenged (I don’t think maligned is a fair operative). Wasn’t his interest in helping others to see, as he could see? Do you share his sense of altruism? Or are you on display?

Let me answer your concerns about worldly wisdom or knowledge briefly. I think that a Christian should beware of philosophy.

Agreed, in principle.

The systematic implementation of worldly wisdom by a God-talker can actually corrupt a good theological system.

Again, I agree in principle.

On the other hand, I believe that Stephen T. Davis makes a valid point when he suggests that the Bible does not condemn all forms of abstract thought vis-a-vis the faith. He argues that the apostle Paul even waxed abstract in Acts 17, and I think I've found places in the NT where Paul actually leans on Plato and Aristotle a bit. Davis writes "the wisdom of God is attained not by reasoning alone but by faith. But again I see no blanket condemnation of the enterprise of philosophy here [in 1 Cor 1:17ff and 2:1ff]."

I was not inferring a blanket condemnation, but rather an appropriate approximation of its value (as I believe was Paul’s intent). In other words, don’t let knowledge get in the way of what you know. As in the end, I tend to lean towards Alan’s feeling that most philosophy is the product of an overactive mind, and without intrinsic (or practical) value (if I read him right). My personal interests tend more towards the thoughts of historical men of action, such as Napoleon, etc.

I think the operative word in this case is CAVE, as in CAVE CANEM!

Beware of the dog? Yes very good – as in the sense that over indulgence in, or attributing excess value to certain schools of thought (including atheistic) can be the dog that bites?

So, tell me. . . where do you go from here?

Copernicus

2

If You Can't ask Questions Can It Be The Truth?

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

if one has the truth he invites questions, because they will only confirm it with answers.. if one has 1/2 truths then only certain type of questions are wanted ones that they can answer.. if questions that are hard or that really challenge the holder of 1/2 truths are supressed and the questioner motives are attacked, should it not make any clear thinking person suspicious?.

if you are one of jw's can you asked hard questions and not be afraid of being veiwed with suspicion and contempt?.

any jws please respond.

Copernicus

If you are one of JW's can you ask hard questions and not be afraid of being viewed with suspicion and contempt?

A “real” JW doesn’t have any questions, hard or otherwise. Because if he did, he wouldn’t be a “real” JW anymore, and would therefore be deserving of suspicion and contempt.

Just the view from my side of the picture window.

28

A Question for You

by individuals wife in

jw
friends

just a couple of quick questions, the first directed at exjws - could you ever see any reason for you to return to the organisation?

what would have to happen for you to return?

under what circumstances would you ever go back?

Copernicus

wife:

Why are you asking these questions?

What would your answers be?