Are These the Last Days?

by individual 40 Replies latest jw friends

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  individual

  Does anyone who has left the organisation still feel that these are the last days? All down through history people have wanted to feel that they live in special times - are JWs just an extension of this?

  For me the biggest problem with this theory of the last days has been the distinct lack of earthquakes since 1914, a quote from the book Signs of the Times Revisited says "As more and more seismographs are installed in the world, more earthquakes can be and have been located. However, the number of large earthquakes (magnitude 6.0 or greater) have stayed relatively constant ... in fact, the last decade has produced substantially fewer earthquakes than shown in the long term averages."

  A graph in the book shows the remarkable fact that from 1960 through to 1990 there was a great drop off in magnitude 8.0 or greater earthquakes. If the WT society was truly right about the last days surely there would be a greater number of earthquakes since 1914, not less. I approached an elder with this in answer to a comment he made that 'isn't it fantastic that Jesus who helped make the world, nearly 2000 years ago knew that the plates would be particularly active in the last days'. My reply to this was that it has been seismically quiet since 1914, very few major earthquakes and certainly no major eruptions (Mount St Helens was just a fire cracker).

  If the plates were particularly active not only earthquakes would have increased but also volcanic eruptions would have been more frequent and larger. The last two really big eruptions were Tambora in 1815 and Krakatau in 1883, these two were many times bigger than Mt St Helens. There usually are one or two massive eruptions on the scale of Tambora every century. During the so called last days since 1914 there has been none.

  You would have thought that with the world population having grown so much since 1914 that there would have been more earthquake and volcanic disasters with the population being more widespread, more conurbanisation. Instead we find this has been less so.

  So are these really the last days? This is supposed to be a continual sign throughout the last days and it has failed to happen.
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  jayhawk1

  Not only are there fewer earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. But where are the wars in one place after another. Sure there have been two world wars, but that ended almost 60 years ago. The only wars today are where there have been wars for centuries. In 1984 I was told by my dad that the Soviet Union would invade the United States any moment. Well, I am still waiting for that to happen. Just like we are nearing the end I suppose.

  "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
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  joelbear

  These are the last days of July 2001, but that's about it.
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  Thirdson

  Hello Individual,

  I remember the opposed husband of a "sister" using the lack of earthquakes as an argument against this period being the last days. I think I used the counter-argument put forward by the WTS that although the number has not increased the effect on larger populations plus the global monitoring and reporting provides the "increase in earthquakes."

  However, the gospels don't say that and this is all justification of a belief made to fit the circumstances. Some other disbelievers of the WTS may try to counter that the Greek word translated as Earthquakes is incorrect and that quaking applies to something else (maybe invisible shaking).

  In reality all of the elements of the sign can be discounted because none of them are any worse when viewed from the large human population of today. Perhaps most surprising, after all the doom and gloom of the 60's and 70's regarding the world's population growth, is just how well food production has continued to match the population growth. As for pestilence, it has had little impact on population size. Compare that to the 14th century and the decimation of European populations by the Black Death.

  The US northwest was hit by a fairly large earthquake a few months ago. The damage in terms of cost it was a lot less than the cost to British farmers of Foot-and-mouth disease. Earthquakes have much less of an impact in our lives than in Biblical times. Just note how many people choose to live in large urban areas within regions of high probability of strong earthquakes such as California. I don't think people are fatalistic, I think they know in all likelihood they will survive earthquakes.

  Thirdson

  'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Ind: The book [i]Signs of the last Days - When[/b] buy Carl Olaf Jonnson dispelled any notiion that Matthew 24 etc. was meant to warn us of the Last Days.

  Forexample: The 'earthquake' issue is interesting because 'earthquakes have been getting feweer since the 19th century and fewer people getting killed. A Seismologist at Georgia Institute of Technonolgy was quoted by the Society on this issue, but the Soceity took his comments out of context, and he had to write to them to correct their misuse of his statements. It also happens that in my engineering career I would use his reports from time to time in connection with equipment qualificaton for nuclear power plants. I did not actually conduct seismic tests as I did with destructive accidents testing, but I still analyzed seismic data for my work. So when I saw this issue discussed in COJ's book and the letter from the GIT Seismologist, I knew that COJ had done some good work.

  The Watch Tower Society is not alone in trying to use Matt 24 to predict the Last Days. The Society use to think that the Last Days started in 1799 with the French Revolution, they revised this to 1914, and they will likely find a new starting point in the 21st Century. They are a fruad religion par excellence. - Amazing
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  Francois

  I really feel that appeal to the appearence of various natural phenomena discloses continuing regard for a God of natural forces; a primitive concept of God.

  The human race originally, it would seem, worshipped all sorts of things: rocks, trees, fire, wind, the sun, you name it. Worshipping things, especially those it couldn't understand, was even more pronounced: lightening, thunder, volcanoes, and earthquakes. We don't so much worship these things anymore as we tend to use them as ancillary items in certain forms of worship, especially superstitious, cultic worship.

  The plain fact is that as the earth cools off, as it has been doing for millions of years, there will be less convective pressures in the mantle and thus less volcanoes, and less tectonic movement, thus less earthquakes. It's just the nature of things. One day in the unforseeable future, the earth will be cool enough so that no plate tectonic-type movement will occur at all. And perhaps this will happen before San Francisco is opposite Juneau .

  However, earthquakes and such are phenomena that were once attributed to the action of God, not plate tectonics, so sure enough, when God is ready to kill off the human race (except for Jay-Dubs, of course) he is scheduled to engage in all sorts of these kinds of phenomena.

  IMO, this and so many other of our philosophical/religious problems arise from an inability to shed the dead skin of olden, primitive and savage concepts of who and what God is.

  Getting to your question, no, I don't personally believe that these are the "last days." Nor do I believe that there is any such thing as any last days for life on this planet, not in the sense you mean. There may be the last days of our slow progression toward that species of spiritual maturity that will elevate our thinking to realize that God is not the savage spirit-demon of Horeb who is just a cut above a Chemosh or a Baal, but instead is a loving father who does not desire the death of any one of his children (even the misguided ones like the Jay-Dubs, who lust after the violent destruction of all who don't share their quaint beliefs).

  My $0.02.

  Francois

  Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
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  dmouse

  No, these are not the last days. The so called 'signs' mentioned in the bible, if they can be used to warn that the end is imminent (and there is a good argument for believing that, in Matthew, Jesus was saying 'look, there will be earthquakes, famines etc, but these are always happening, they are NOT a sign of the end), have not increased unduly in the last few generations.

  As for earthquakes, check out what the National Earthquake Information Centre says about the perceived increase at:

  http://wwwneic.cr.usgs.gov/neis/general/handouts/increase_in_earthquakes.html

  FAMINE. If we look at the numbers of food-poor people in the world today, it could be argued that famine is on the increase because, in absolute terms, there are as many hungry people now as in previous times. Depending on your perspective, this may be viewed as stagnation, but not worsening, because in the last forty years, the proportion of hungry people in the world has diminished by over a half, from 23 percent to 10 percent and falling! (Source: Hunger in History; L.F. Newman (Ed) 1995)If the falling proportion of food-poor people continues at its present rate, then food poverty will be virtually eliminated by the year 2050. (I wonder, if that happens, what the Society will find to moan about then). Check out the list of major historical famines listed in the encyclopaedia Britannica and count the number of dead, comparing the 19th and 20th centuries; you will see no increase in deaths due to famine at all, this in spite of a four-fold increase in world population.

  DISEASE. Yes, we all know about the JW’s favourite disease: AIDS (the best thing to happen for them since world war one). However, this disease, while terrible, is as nothing compared to the diseases mankind has defeated in the last two centuries due to improved medicine and hygiene. The simple fact is that the average life-span, in nearly every country in the world, has increased immensely in the last few generations. Why? What used to kill them that now doesn’t? The answer is obvious – disease and famine. In the middle ages about half, yes HALF, of ALL babies died before they reached the age of 5! Have things got worse since then? I think not.

  WAR. Wars have always been incredibly common.
  It is true that the 20th century saw two of the most devastating wars ever, the first and second world wars. On the face of it, warfare would seem to be the doom-prophesiers trump card. The casualty figures from these ‘world’ wars are particularly impressive from a ‘sign’ point of view but are by no means unique. Massively devastating wars have occurred throughout history. The Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) in China, for example, was a radical political and religious upheaval that was probably one of the most violent events in human history. It ravaged 17 provinces and took an estimated twenty million lives - twice the casualty figures of world war one! But perhaps they don’t count to JWs, they were only heathen Chinese. Yes, we have had two really big wars, but the last one was 60 years ago, not exactly what one would expect from the sign of the end eh?
  There is a lot more to be said on this topic, and tons of evidence to show that we are not living in the time of the end, but time and space does not permit. It is interesting that the society sees a realisation that we are not living in the last days as one of the most dangerous doubts that a JW can have (along with doubts about the validity of the FDS). Why? Because they know that they cannot stand up to intelligent scrutiny or the facts.

  Dean.
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  JanH

  I just posted an article I wrote sometime back, called "The Last Days in the 14th Century" in this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8428&site=3

  It compares the "calamaties" of the 20th century with what a person would have lived through in the 13th century.

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
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  VeniceIT

  This is a very interesting subject. One my father has spent the last year doing extensive research on. First off if you've read my story you'll see that what hit me last year and made me realize the JW's didn't have the truth was Matt 24!!! The main thing we realized at first was that the FDS was an illustration (off topic). but the rest of the chapter is Jesus talking about the destruction of JERUSALEM. THAT IS THE TOPIC, because in CH 23 they are LOOKING at the Tempe and Jesus that it will be destroyed and not a stone left upon a stone. So in Chap it is the SAME COVNERSTAION, remember chapters and verses weren't in the original, text and are basically a commentary to the verse.

  What do they ask??? they ask when will these things be and what will be the sing of the conclusion of this system of things, and his return. What I want you to do is to put yourself in their shoes, you are one of the 4 and Jesus has just told you some very ‘APOSTATE’ things. He has just condemned the entire Jewish religious system and said the temple would be destroyed. Do you think at this very INTENSE moment you are going to EVEN CARE what happens in 2000 years. NO you want to know what’s going to happen NOW and in your lifetime, because Jesus has said and will say repeatedly, shortly, soon, THIS GENERATION!!!! When reading the NT all the books make it sound like its going to happen SOON not 2000 years later.

  When I read this chapter over last year, I remember reading vs 24:4-8, and I realized that aspect of Jesus conversations was telling them what would be happening prior to his return yes, but that’s not the sign, it’s more a non sign actually he was telling them these things would happen but that didn’t’ mean he was coming at that time, that it was just routine history. Notice the Warning Jesus gave in Vs 4. He said (NASB) “And Jesus answered them and said to them, ‘See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying I am the Christ and will mislead many. “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but this is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there sill be famines and earth quakes. “But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.” He goes on in vs 9 about how they’ll be persecuted, betrayed, hated etc… Why was this aspect NEVER part of the sign as preached by WTS why, was there some divine Comma placed in there to tell us it was separate NO!!!!

  How did Jesus describe the above events. Notice what word he used he said MERELY. “These things are MERELY the beginning.” Now if these were the ALL IMPORTANT SIGN wouldn’t’ he have put a bit more emphasis on it. I mean how MANY pages has the WTS used over the years to expound on a few verses of something that Jesus said were merely the beginning.

  I would now like to quote the above VSs from ‘The Message’ by Eugene Peterson. It’s a modern street vernacular version, but I love the way he puts it. “Jesus says, “Watch our for any doomsday deceivers. Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities claiming, ‘I am the Christ, the messiah’ They will deceive a lot of people. When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep you head and don’t panic. This is routine history, this is no sign of the end. Nation will fight against nation, and ruler fight ruler over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places. This is nothing compared to what is coming’

  Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to spend the time on what Jesus ACTUALLY said the sign was. Next he goes on to tell them about how they were to flee when the Romans encircled them and retreated THAT’’S WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR!!!!!! That was what the CLUE was. Not the other wars or earthquakes. Jesus goes on in vs16 – 28 telling then how they needed to flee from Jerusalem and take refuge in Pella, he was telling them how important it was to do that!!!! Then in VS 29 we see it says “The sun will be darkened the moon will not give it’s light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.” And then at LAST, the SIGN of the son of man will appear in heaven and there will be deep mourning among all the nations of the earth.”

  So Jesus PLAINLY stats what the SING is. The sign is Jesus appearing in Heaven. HE then goes on in the rest of this chapter and the next to give them illustrations of how they need to be aware and take action when they saw these things. See most of the people at that time wouldn’t have the written word for quite a while, so they best way to get his point across was to use illustrations that people could pass on to others. THAT IS ALL THAT THEY ARE!!!! The FDS is just an illustration of paying attention.

  What’s really interesting is to read Josephus work and other books on how all of what Jesus set out in Matt 24 WAS fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE and how much of it was apocalyptic language.

  I remember when I read that last year and REALSIED I’d spent sooo much of my time preaching and teaching and studying with people about the NON sign, and never knew how much of the rest of the chapter had been fulfilled. Keep in mind what Jesus said to them about the destruction of Jerusalem ‘This tribulation that has never occurred before, NO NOR WILL EVER OCCUR AGAIN” from that vs. alone I don’t see how anyone could say the above versus had a 2 part or typical and antitypical application. If you ACTUALLY read Matt 24 for it really says, and preferably not in the NWT, you’ll see that EVERYTYING Jesus warns about not being mislead, are the VERY things that the WTS teaches. That one chapter condemns them to false prophets and that they will mislead many, that was a great shock to me. You see Jesus SAYS what the sign, ‘and the sign of the son of man is” No need for guesswork or tons of books or studying no he says it very plainly.

  So do I think we’re living in the last days, as outlined in Matt 24. No I think the apostles were because that’s what Jesus said.!!!!

  Ven

  "The best way to convince a fool that he is wrong, is to let him have his own way."---Josh Billings
• 

  Copernicus

  Do I still believe that we’re in the “last days” and that Armageddon is imminent?

  In a word, no.

  The whole concept of “signs” during “these” last days is part of the JW circular reasoning on end times. They have a (demonstrably flawed) chronology that points (as of its last revision) to the first part of the 20th century as the start of Christ’s presence, and hence the last days. Since from their perspective we are now very well along into this period, there MUST be the accompanying signs. Why? Because signs would appear during the last days, right? And on and on it goes.

  So much has been said elsewhere about Jesus’ description in Matthew 24 about the end of the aion (age) and the supposed events that enjoin it that it becomes redundant to discuss it further in this forum; there is so much definitive material available on the net if you’d care to do some research. I will say that the attempt by the JW’s to take what they believed (and understandably so) was evidence of such signs: World War I, the flu pandemic, etc. – and extend them throughout the entire 20th century and on into the next is ludicrous at best, and manipulative apologetics at worst.

  Clearly, many of the signs spoken of are alleged to have found a cataclysmic fulfillment in the first century. To speak of significant “signs” occurring in our day that are in fact indistinguishable from the ebb and flow of any period in history is a bit of a reach. This has simply been a tactic used by the WTS to maintain an impetus for their magazine selling endeavors. As Amazing said – “they are a fraud religion par excellence.”

  Jesus repeatedly warned his disciples to keep on the watch, and that they wouldn’t know the hour of his coming. This would seem to preclude that his “presence” could be ascertained by the appearance of any signs. He himself said that life would be going on normally and that his arrival would be unexpected by most.

  Ahhhh. . . but I’ve already said more then I ever wanted to on this subject. As with every other bible topic of any imagined importance, the whole narrative is so shot through with double talk and contradictions, that any real meaning (if it has any) is lost in the mix. What’s the point of coming to earth, with the proclaimed purpose of presenting a message from God, and then talking in gibberish?

  Forget about the last days. If you’re past 40 you ARE in your own “time of the end” (the proof signs of this are wrinkles, constipation, etc, ha, ha). Enjoy life and cherish the moments that make it worth living right now.