Posts by Shawn10538

29

Couple of JW Sisters came to my door - mini rumble

by Qcmbr in

first of all want to thank you all for informing me of the good the bad and smurfly about jws - i was so stoked when these two sister's knocked on my door.

i apologise now - i was a smug git - in fairness they conducted themselves impeccably in the face of me.

this is how it went (paraphrased to highlight 'clever' bits i said and downplay swathes of conversation when i said silly things.

Shawn10538

No. Would you leave the LDS church. (Good riposte!!) So, we have a Mormon ex-JW here? That is really funny if true. Good luck with that, I'll just get back to my Santa Claus Cult now where the real truth lies. Man, I'm glad I'm not a Witness anymore! Oh, say, and about Santa's golden plates you wanted to see? (Similar to Smith's plates, but these ones are the TRUE plates of gold written, not in Egyptian, but in ancient Icelandic!) You know, Friday is not good for me either. I have some hours to put in at the north pole. Can we reschedule for the 47,000th time in a row? You just keep catching me at bad times. In any case, you can only come to see the curtain behind which the gold plates sit. God only allows me to actually see the plates themselves. You just have to have faith, don't you know that? Anyway, I'm glad that the several hundred thousand actual sightings of Santa and his reindeer from all over the globe each year actually prove conclusively that Santa is real. Do Mormons even have that much evidence? Someone here, and I'm only assuming at this point, may need to catch up on some missed South Park episodes... call me crazy. No, really, call me crazy for believing in Santa and that the LDS is not just as ridiculous as all that and more... Shawn

13

FASCINATING "ARGUMENT" on Raymond Franz

by Terry in

jw
friends

--buckaroo 14:56, 10 november 2005 (utc) your response to the original post was that this doesn't read like "a fair and unbiased representation of the facts.

do you have a better, more accurate version of the story?

"tommstein 09:04, 14 november 2005 (utc) i don't need to have a, "more accurate version of the story," to tell when an individual's opinion is being presented as fact.

Shawn10538

Hi all,
I haven't made too many posts on this site yet. I forgot my user name and password for a while. Anyway, just to comment on some of the comments:
First off, I had this whole argument on my screen for a couple of days, and I started to read some of it but it was all just stuff I have argued successfully over with other Witnesses on many occasions before, so I just don't have the stomach for hearing the same old non-self-critical-apologist arguments from members of a well established mind control cult any more. So I didn't get through the whole thing at first.

(Yeah, I know, the "non-self-critical-apologist" comment, a bit Ad Hominem, but based on quite a bit of experience with the group over the last 30 years, my whole life, 6 years at Bethel and just under 10 years of full time service altogether, so I'm going to feel at ease here applying some labels to the group that while you readers may not all agree with, and I'm not going to take the time defend every single one of the labels I apply to JWs, I will still use a few on occasion. Actually in this case I refer to JWs arguments as non-self-critical, not the people themselves, so maybe it's not ad hom after all.)

Maybe I'm just getting too old for debating, but it took a few days and the second time I read the Wikipedia post I really enjoyed it. Even though I'm getting tired of it, I see debating as one of the best ways to get at the truth of a matter, so I have respect for the process even if it shows me up to be totally wrong about things at times, often even. I'm not really engaging with any of the actual issues listed in the dialogue here, but believe me, and it's only after years of experience "studying" with JWs (under the cover of being an "interested" person, which is quite a fun thing to do I'll add, you all should try it!) JWs are totally self delusional and self manipulative, and they should therefore be treated very tenderly and kindly else their monumental structured belief system, that is based on invented history and myth, will come crashing down, creating a real personal and social crisis. One can only witness the collapse of a person's belief structure right before their eyes so many times before feeling a little sorry for the poor suckers, as I have and do. And, one can only read or listen to the same programmed responses so many times before they just get sick and tired of it and find new hobbies. So, that's where I am right now.

If you do try to have a fake study, and I recommend it as therapy for any ex-Witness, you'll never cease to be astounded at the level of self deception and self manipulation that these poor cult members subject themselves to in an effort to ease their massive amounts of cognitive dissonance. The preceding arguments are fine evidence of the latent grasping at straws that one finds in exiting JWs and members of, really, any cult (and believe me, these folks who are debating for JWs in the text above are definitely on their way out whether they know it or not.) Their sheer intensity is evidence of the level of dissonance they are experiencing in their heads, and this will keep building until they reach their breaking point, and their psyche, emotional balance and nervous systems just shut down and they surrender. It's a beautiful human process really, and I've watched it happen to those who have studied with me. Right in front of my eyes I've seen them break down and surrender. My last study sat in silence for about 5 minutes at one point and looked up at me on the verge of tears (this was/is a 23 year old ministerial servant/pioneer who serves in a Spanish Congregation and travels frequently with the International Construction Worker program, so you get a visual) and just said, "Now what?" I didn't answer that question directly, I just said something like, "Welcome to the beauty and adventure of life, it's your journey to figure that out." My point here is that I think all of us who have left the group can relate to, at some point vehemently and wrecklessly defending and explaining away the irrational stances and catastrophic blunders, lies and cover-ups of the cult leaders.

It seems as of the last few years, we are finding many more JWs deciding to go to college, and there they learn a smittering of logic and critical thinking. But, they seem to digest these tools only so far as it serves to support their beliefs or defend themselves from the perceived attacks from "apostates." In the end however, they have failed to catch the spirit of true honest inquiry. The reason I say this is that no matter how much they learn to the contrary, like cats that fall backwards and always land on their feet, these pseudo critical thinkers (yes, that's a label, and therefore ad hominem if I don't give any actual examples to support it, I know. Don't get distracted though, stay with me untill you hear the point) seem to always end their search where it began, with no actual forward progress, discovery, illumination, epiphany, evolution or breakthrough. They end up believing exactly as they believed when they started the investigation (whatever investigation they might have been conducting as an assignment for some class in college or a personal study of something I mean.) This fact, to me, is what proves whether a person is a true intellectual, scholar, critical thinker or learner, as opposed to a pseudo critical thinker. When one gains new information, one MUST adjust their beliefs to account for the new information, especially if that new information contradicts some old long held and emotionally charged belief.

Let's restate that for emphasis: It is physically impossible, without using some type of self manipulation, to learn a new fact, no matter how small, and not have to adjust ones whole belief system to the right or left or up or down so to speak. New information necessitates a new stance, even if that shift in stance is miniscule. No body of beliefs can be unaffected by the addition of a new belief. In other words, all of our beliefs are interconnected, and if you pile another one on top, or sneak it in the side, you change the whole shape of your belief system, however slight a change this might be.

The WTS does not allow for this type of personal transformation and search for truth, unless it all takes place within the box pre-labeled "truth" or "body of acceptable thoughts and beliefs." In a sense, JWs have been robbed of their God-given right to search for truth. Their search was completed for them, in most cases, by a parent and ultimately by the Governing Body indirectly. I have found it almost without exception, in the case of about two dozen test subjects who have studied with me thinking I am a newly interested one, that the member's whole search and test of truth was conducted using exclusively WTS publications. They then of course argue that the GB has already read these other books for them, and so reading a Watchtower for example, is equivalent to reading all the "worldly" publications that are referred to within the Watchtower. This, to them, is what a balanced and thorough investigation of a matter consists of, and this is where their critical thinking process is chopped off and hijacked by the WTS. The WTS has successfully derailed any attempt at a personal investigation on the part of its followers, often labeling such investigation as dangerous and prideful (especially if that investigation involves reading the Bible itself for long periods of time without consulting what the GB says the Bible "REALLY" says.) To show the effect such policies have on JWs, just look at the quote from "Buckoroo" in the above dialogue:

"I can only assume that a person who openly "challenges" an organization of which they are a part is desirous either of
prominence for themselves within that organization or a swift exit from it. Either way, that person knows the rules and can surely
have no complaints when they disregard them. --bUcKaRoO 20:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)"

This person seems to believe that it is morally wrong to "openly challenge" the WTS, and dismisses the possibilty that a person's reason for challenging an issue may be a heartfelt desire to know the truth and not necessarily for prideful advancement or a swift exit. Why is it so that one can not openly challenge the WTS? If one can not do so, how can one be a true seeker of truth? It seems that once someone accepts what is contained in the WTS's "box o' truth" one is condemned from that moment on to never be able to "challenge," test, poke, prod, analyze, critically analyze, "keep seeking as for hid treasure," or in any other way keep refining what one currently accepts as true.

A person in this situation is sadly stuck with a set of beliefs that, if there is any untruth in them [and how could there fail to be, as human as we all are, and as human as the GB is and as infamously guilty of having ridiculous beliefs (black people will turn white in the new system, Abraham is coming to live in San Diego, let's dress up in sheets and go out on to the Brooklyn Bridge and wait to be taken up in Oct. of 1914...)] then they will just have to wallow in the mire of what they know is untrue, "waiting on God" it's called, until the big whigs in Brooklyn figure it out and then give you the permission to go ahead and believe what you have known to be true for some time, but were waiting for God to use the "proper channels" to get that thing revealed to, first, the head honchos, and last, to the puny little folks who don't deserve the rights of personal inquiry. Of course, thanks to "God's arrangement" in this matter, many people have died (hemophiliacs and others in need of transfusions) waiting on a very slow and lethargic slave (not quite faithful and discreet) to let a decision of life threatening importance to rest on their desks for months out of fear of seeming to be too wishy-washy, while untold numbers were dying in the early 1970s, if I'm not mistaken. (One needs to know about the specific account I am referring to, to understand this point. SEE "Crisis of Conscience," "Apcalypse Delayed" or "Spiritual Food at the Proper Time" for details.)

Am I getting it right so far? When you take into consideration the above observations, your heart has to go out to these people. That is why I have changed the focus of my "Bible studies" to be more about the persons themselves. I am planning on becoming a cult exit counselor myself, and I keep this in mind as I work with these people, that they are people after all, sadly misled and being taken advantage of by a very powerful controller of information. And, as many of you know, one of the marks of a destructive cult is information control. How appropriate it was that someone brought up Orwell's 1984 in this discussion. And, it was a WT apologist who made the mental connection between WT policies on freedom of thought and the thought police of 1984. Now, what does that tell you? Even those supporters of WTS, on some level, see the WTS as reminiscent of the police state of "1984," without any prompting by us so-called apostates. That was the most indicting statement in the whole interchange above I feel. Here it is:

" The tenor of this inflammatory quote is, I'm guessing, aimed to encourage comparisons with Orwell's Thought Police or some
medieval inquisition. It certainly exaggerates the strength of the Governing Body's feelings on this matter and in a pejorative
manner. Raymond Franz's story is a powerful and moving one, but it should be told accurately."

My response: As if he knows the story of Ray Franz better than Ray Franz...

Anyway here's some more quotes from that post that I found funny or interesting:

"The whole world needs to stop going back and forth about tired old old watchtower false propaganda.

(See? The WT is false Propaganda
according to this witness!)

The truth is that Ray Franz is an apostate an he knows it and all who defend him are apostate or apostate defenders."

My response: (In what sense an apostate, and where is the term "apostate defender" in the Bible?)

"If The WTBT has misled and lied about God and his son Christ then all the WTBT followers will be saved because they have been misled, and
god knows the true intentions of the heart.

My response: (Was not Eve deceived and destroyed?)

"As for now all that we know is that the WTBT has been around since along time ago and if they are still around and getting stronger it's for a
reason. "

My response: (So Islaam, which has been around longer and is the fastest growing religion in the world must be the true religion!)

"I have never read Franz's book "

My response: (Of course you haven't! YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED! Nanny, nanny nanny goat. Little baby is not allowed to read stuff cuz Mama Borg says so! Poor witto baby.)

"It does not say, as Franz asserts, that Jesus chased the moneychangers out of the naos. That is a misleading presentation of the article. "

My response: (So, when Ray Franz misquotes WT it is malisciously intended to deceive, but when WT misquotes it was just a witto mistake. OOps! Our bad! Did we say 1914? We meant 1915! OOps, didwe say 1925? We meant a few months after the release of the Children book! Our bad! OOps! Did we say 1975? We meant, before the old folks all die who were kids in 1914. Our bad! OOps? Did we say when the folks die? We meant, well, um, er... Say, just what IS a generation anyway? I mean, it could be a billion years for all we know. When it comes, we'll know it's here, and then we'll know what that cwazy Jesus meant by that totally mysterious and ambiguous term "generation." So let's just stop talking about our mistakes, let's focus on YOUR mistakes. Didn't I see you eating lunch with a co-worker?

"The letter reproduced in Raymond Franz's book actually refers to a person who "abandons the teachings of Jehovah ... and PERSISTS in believing other doctrine." "If ... he CONTINUES TO BELIEVE the apostate ideas and REJECTS what he has been provided ... then appropriate judicial action should be taken." (emphasis mine)
Although this wording is stern, it is significantly less blunt than the apparent (but inaccurate) quote within this article that implies the Governing Body instructed that an individual who "merely disagrees in thought with any of the Watch Tower Society's teachings is committing apostasy and is liable for disfellowshipping (excommunication)"."

My response: (So, you are saying that it is OK to have subversive thoughts, and you won't get disfellowshipped for having such thoughts. Well, DUH! That's because the elders can't read your mind you goof! Of course you can only get disfellowshipped when you actually SPEAK your thoughts.)

The point I made in my initial comments on the discussion page stands, unless you produce evidence to the contrary: the Governing Body does not claim to take action against Jehovah's Witnesses for allowing stray thoughts to cross their mind, which the phrase you reinstated implies. It does, however, act against those who, in its view, persist in believing something contrary to the Governing Body's teaching after extended reproof. Stating that clearly, as I've done, should be enough. For that reason I've also deleted all the tub-thumping at the tail end of your revised article. The article isn't the place for your views on the Jehovah's Witnesses' disfellowshipping policy.

My response: (So, you are saying that it is OK to have subversive thoughts, and you won't get disfellowshipped for having such thoughts. Well, DUH! That's because the elders can't read your mind you goof! Of course you can only get disfellowshipped when you actually SPEAK your thoughts.)

"Extended kindly effort should be put forth to readjust his thinking"

(Oh God, this is so tiring...Calgon, take me awaaaaayyyyyy-----!!!!!)

This is the essence of Wikipedia, but you seem unable to tolerate any tidy-up.
Having said that the article is fair and balanced, I think you destroy that with your final comments about the WT Society's disfellowshipping policy, which seems an emotional and defensive outburst aimed at anyone who you think might disagree with you (me, for starters, I'm guessing). The way I expressed it in my edit stated the facts without repetition. And can you cut the insults? I take offence at you (1) labelling my contribution as vandalism, (2) describing my edits as biased, (3) dismissing me as a "mystery, new" contributor and (4) making assumptions about my religious affiliation and lecturing me on the basis of that. Grimhim 03:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

My RESPONSE: (Yup, that thought police loves to" tidy up" their own history. There is nothing quite like making all the loose pieces and deceptions tie up so neatly after a hard day of denial and self decption!)

Gotta go,
Shawn

Shawn Dean
562-225-5928

Lots of Love

13

FASCINATING "ARGUMENT" on Raymond Franz

by Terry in

jw
friends

--buckaroo 14:56, 10 november 2005 (utc) your response to the original post was that this doesn't read like "a fair and unbiased representation of the facts.

do you have a better, more accurate version of the story?

"tommstein 09:04, 14 november 2005 (utc) i don't need to have a, "more accurate version of the story," to tell when an individual's opinion is being presented as fact.

Shawn10538

Hi all, I haven't made too many posts on this site yet. I forgot my user name and password for a while. Anyway, just to comment on some of the comments: First off, I had this whole argument on my screen for a couple of days, and I started to read some of it but it was all just stuff I have argued successfully over with other Witnesses on many occasions before, so I just don't have the stomach for hearing the same old non-self-critical-apologist arguments from members of a well established mind control cult any more. So I didn't get through the whole thing at first. (Yeah, I know, the "non-self-critical-apologist" comment, a bit Ad Hominem, but based on quite a bit of experience with the group over the last 30 years, my whole life, 6 years at Bethel and just under 10 years of full time service altogether, so I'm going to feel at ease here applying some labels to the group that while you readers may not all agree with, and I'm not going to take the time defend every single one of the labels I apply to JWs, I will still use a few on occasion. Actually in this case I refer to JWs arguments as non-self-critical, not the people themselves, so maybe it's not ad hom after all.) Maybe I'm just getting too old for debating, but it took a few days and the second time I read the Wikipedia post I really enjoyed it. Even though I'm getting tired of it, I see debating as one of the best ways to get at the truth of a matter, so I have respect for the process even if it shows me up to be totally wrong about things at times, often even. I'm not really engaging with any of the actual issues listed in the dialogue here, but believe me, and it's only after years of experience "studying" with JWs (under the cover of being an "interested" person, which is quite a fun thing to do I'll add, you all should try it!) JWs are totally self delusional and self manipulative, and they should therefore be treated very tenderly and kindly else their monumental structured belief system, that is based on invented history and myth, will come crashing down, creating a real personal and social crisis. One can only witness the collapse of a person's belief structure right before their eyes so many times before feeling a little sorry for the poor suckers, as I have and do. And, one can only read or listen to the same programmed responses so many times before they just get sick and tired of it and find new hobbies. So, that's where I am right now. If you do try to have a fake study, and I recommend it as therapy for any ex-Witness, you'll never cease to be astounded at the level of self deception and self manipulation that these poor cult members subject themselves to in an effort to ease their massive amounts of cognitive dissonance. The preceding arguments are fine evidence of the latent grasping at straws that one finds in exiting JWs and members of, really, any cult (and believe me, these folks who are debating for JWs in the text above are definitely on their way out whether they know it or not.) Their sheer intensity is evidence of the level of dissonance they are experiencing in their heads, and this will keep building until they reach their breaking point, and their psyche, emotional balance and nervous systems just shut down and they surrender. It's a beautiful human process really, and I've watched it happen to those who have studied with me. Right in front of my eyes I've seen them break down and surrender. My last study sat in silence for about 5 minutes at one point and looked up at me on the verge of tears (this was/is a 23 year old ministerial servant/pioneer who serves in a Spanish Congregation and travels frequently with the International Construction Worker program, so you get a visual) and just said, "Now what?" I didn't answer that question directly, I just said something like, "Welcome to the beauty and adventure of life, it's your journey to figure that out." My point here is that I think all of us who have left the group can relate to, at some point vehemently and wrecklessly defending and explaining away the irrational stances and catastrophic blunders, lies and cover-ups of the cult leaders. It seems as of the last few years, we are finding many more JWs deciding to go to college, and there they learn a smittering of logic and critical thinking. But, they seem to digest these tools only so far as it serves to support their beliefs or defend themselves from the perceived attacks from "apostates." In the end however, they have failed to catch the spirit of true honest inquiry. The reason I say this is that no matter how much they learn to the contrary, like cats that fall backwards and always land on their feet, these pseudo critical thinkers (yes, that's a label, and therefore ad hominem if I don't give any actual examples to support it, I know. Don't get distracted though, stay with me untill you hear the point) seem to always end their search where it began, with no actual forward progress, discovery, illumination, epiphany, evolution or breakthrough. They end up believing exactly as they believed when they started the investigation (whatever investigation they might have been conducting as an assignment for some class in college or a personal study of something I mean.) This fact, to me, is what proves whether a person is a true intellectual, scholar, critical thinker or learner, as opposed to a pseudo critical thinker. When one gains new information, one MUST adjust their beliefs to account for the new information, especially if that new information contradicts some old long held and emotionally charged belief. Let's restate that for emphasis: It is physically impossible, without using some type of self manipulation, to learn a new fact, no matter how small, and not have to adjust ones whole belief system to the right or left or up or down so to speak. New information necessitates a new stance, even if that shift in stance is miniscule. No body of beliefs can be unaffected by the addition of a new belief. In other words, all of our beliefs are interconnected, and if you pile another one on top, or sneak it in the side, you change the whole shape of your belief system, however slight a change this might be. The WTS does not allow for this type of personal transformation and search for truth, unless it all takes place within the box pre-labeled "truth" or "body of acceptable thoughts and beliefs." In a sense, JWs have been robbed of their God-given right to search for truth. Their search was completed for them, in most cases, by a parent and ultimately by the Governing Body indirectly. I have found it almost without exception, in the case of about two dozen test subjects who have studied with me thinking I am a newly interested one, that the member's whole search and test of truth was conducted using exclusively WTS publications. They then of course argue that the GB has already read these other books for them, and so reading a Watchtower for example, is equivalent to reading all the "worldly" publications that are referred to within the Watchtower. This, to them, is what a balanced and thorough investigation of a matter consists of, and this is where their critical thinking process is chopped off and hijacked by the WTS. The WTS has successfully derailed any attempt at a personal investigation on the part of its followers, often labeling such investigation as dangerous and prideful (especially if that investigation involves reading the Bible itself for long periods of time without consulting what the GB says the Bible "REALLY" says.) To show the effect such policies have on JWs, just look at the quote from "Buckoroo" in the above dialogue: "I can only assume that a person who openly "challenges" an organization of which they are a part is desirous either of prominence for themselves within that organization or a swift exit from it. Either way, that person knows the rules and can surely have no complaints when they disregard them. --bUcKaRoO 20:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)" This person seems to believe that it is morally wrong to "openly challenge" the WTS, and dismisses the possibilty that a person's reason for challenging an issue may be a heartfelt desire to know the truth and not necessarily for prideful advancement or a swift exit. Why is it so that one can not openly challenge the WTS? If one can not do so, how can one be a true seeker of truth? It seems that once someone accepts what is contained in the WTS's "box o' truth" one is condemned from that moment on to never be able to "challenge," test, poke, prod, analyze, critically analyze, "keep seeking as for hid treasure," or in any other way keep refining what one currently accepts as true. A person in this situation is sadly stuck with a set of beliefs that, if there is any untruth in them [and how could there fail to be, as human as we all are, and as human as the GB is and as infamously guilty of having ridiculous beliefs (black people will turn white in the new system, Abraham is coming to live in San Diego, let's dress up in sheets and go out on to the Brooklyn Bridge and wait to be taken up in Oct. of 1914...)] then they will just have to wallow in the mire of what they know is untrue, "waiting on God" it's called, until the big whigs in Brooklyn figure it out and then give you the permission to go ahead and believe what you have known to be true for some time, but were waiting for God to use the "proper channels" to get that thing revealed to, first, the head honchos, and last, to the puny little folks who don't deserve the rights of personal inquiry. Of course, thanks to "God's arrangement" in this matter, many people have died (hemophiliacs and others in need of transfusions) waiting on a very slow and lethargic slave (not quite faithful and discreet) to let a decision of life threatening importance to rest on their desks for months out of fear of seeming to be too wishy-washy, while untold numbers were dying in the early 1970s, if I'm not mistaken. (One needs to know about the specific account I am referring to, to understand this point. SEE "Crisis of Conscience," "Apcalypse Delayed" or "Spiritual Food at the Proper Time" for details.) Am I getting it right so far? When you take into consideration the above observations, your heart has to go out to these people. That is why I have changed the focus of my "Bible studies" to be more about the persons themselves. I am planning on becoming a cult exit counselor myself, and I keep this in mind as I work with these people, that they are people after all, sadly misled and being taken advantage of by a very powerful controller of information. And, as many of you know, one of the marks of a destructive cult is information control. How appropriate it was that someone brought up Orwell's 1984 in this discussion. And, it was a WT apologist who made the mental connection between WT policies on freedom of thought and the thought police of 1984. Now, what does that tell you? Even those supporters of WTS, on some level, see the WTS as reminiscent of the police state of "1984," without any prompting by us so-called apostates. That was the most indicting statement in the whole interchange above I feel. Here it is: " The tenor of this inflammatory quote is, I'm guessing, aimed to encourage comparisons with Orwell's Thought Police or some medieval inquisition. It certainly exaggerates the strength of the Governing Body's feelings on this matter and in a pejorative manner. Raymond Franz's story is a powerful and moving one, but it should be told accurately." My response: As if he knows the story of Ray Franz better than Ray Franz... Anyway here's some more quotes from that post that I found funny or interesting: "The whole world needs to stop going back and forth about tired old old watchtower false propaganda. (See? The WT is false Propaganda according to this witness!) The truth is that Ray Franz is an apostate an he knows it and all who defend him are apostate or apostate defenders." My response: (In what sense an apostate, and where is the term "apostate defender" in the Bible?) "If The WTBT has misled and lied about God and his son Christ then all the WTBT followers will be saved because they have been misled, and god knows the true intentions of the heart. My response: (Was not Eve deceived and destroyed?) "As for now all that we know is that the WTBT has been around since along time ago and if they are still around and getting stronger it's for a reason. " My response: (So Islaam, which has been around longer and is the fastest growing religion in the world must be the true religion!) "I have never read Franz's book " My response: (Of course you haven't! YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED! Nanny, nanny nanny goat. Little baby is not allowed to read stuff cuz Mama Borg says so! Poor witto baby.) "It does not say, as Franz asserts, that Jesus chased the moneychangers out of the naos. That is a misleading presentation of the article. " My response: (So, when Ray Franz misquotes WT it is malisciously intended to deceive, but when WT misquotes it was just a witto mistake. OOps! Our bad! Did we say 1914? We meant 1915! OOps, didwe say 1925? We meant a few months after the release of the Children book! Our bad! OOps! Did we say 1975? We meant, before the old folks all die who were kids in 1914. Our bad! OOps? Did we say when the folks die? We meant, well, um, er... Say, just what IS a generation anyway? I mean, it could be a billion years for all we know. When it comes, we'll know it's here, and then we'll know what that cwazy Jesus meant by that totally mysterious and ambiguous term "generation." So let's just stop talking about our mistakes, let's focus on YOUR mistakes. Didn't I see you eating lunch with a co-worker? "The letter reproduced in Raymond Franz's book actually refers to a person who "abandons the teachings of Jehovah ... and PERSISTS in believing other doctrine." "If ... he CONTINUES TO BELIEVE the apostate ideas and REJECTS what he has been provided ... then appropriate judicial action should be taken." (emphasis mine) Although this wording is stern, it is significantly less blunt than the apparent (but inaccurate) quote within this article that implies the Governing Body instructed that an individual who "merely disagrees in thought with any of the Watch Tower Society's teachings is committing apostasy and is liable for disfellowshipping (excommunication)"." My response: (So, you are saying that it is OK to have subversive thoughts, and you won't get disfellowshipped for having such thoughts. Well, DUH! That's because the elders can't read your mind you goof! Of course you can only get disfellowshipped when you actually SPEAK your thoughts.) The point I made in my initial comments on the discussion page stands, unless you produce evidence to the contrary: the Governing Body does not claim to take action against Jehovah's Witnesses for allowing stray thoughts to cross their mind, which the phrase you reinstated implies. It does, however, act against those who, in its view, persist in believing something contrary to the Governing Body's teaching after extended reproof. Stating that clearly, as I've done, should be enough. For that reason I've also deleted all the tub-thumping at the tail end of your revised article. The article isn't the place for your views on the Jehovah's Witnesses' disfellowshipping policy. My response: (So, you are saying that it is OK to have subversive thoughts, and you won't get disfellowshipped for having such thoughts. Well, DUH! That's because the elders can't read your mind you goof! Of course you can only get disfellowshipped when you actually SPEAK your thoughts.) "Extended kindly effort should be put forth to readjust his thinking" (Oh God, this is so tiring...Calgon, take me awaaaaayyyyyy-----!!!!!) This is the essence of Wikipedia, but you seem unable to tolerate any tidy-up. Having said that the article is fair and balanced, I think you destroy that with your final comments about the WT Society's disfellowshipping policy, which seems an emotional and defensive outburst aimed at anyone who you think might disagree with you (me, for starters, I'm guessing). The way I expressed it in my edit stated the facts without repetition. And can you cut the insults? I take offence at you (1) labelling my contribution as vandalism, (2) describing my edits as biased, (3) dismissing me as a "mystery, new" contributor and (4) making assumptions about my religious affiliation and lecturing me on the basis of that. Grimhim 03:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC) My RESPONSE: (Yup, that thought police loves to" tidy up" their own history. There is nothing quite like making all the loose pieces and deceptions tie up so neatly after a hard day of denial and self decption!) Gotta go, Shawn PS: I invite anyone to engage me in debate, whether for the purpose of refining their own knowledge of truth, or to try and save my soul. It could only end up in their eventual leaving the organization. Not to brag, but my success rate is nearly 100% so far, and yet I am just getting started in the field of exit counseling informally for now, but I'm working on getting my MFA, (I am currently a K-8 teacher) so pleae, come talk to me, all you Witnesses of Jehovah. The truth will set you free. You will feel as light as a feather when those chains just drop off. Test me. Call me. Meet with me. I'll leave my number at the end of this message. I hope you'll call. Shawn Dean 562-225-5928 Lots of Love

57

How Suicide Will Increase Among Jehovah's Witnesses

by metatron in

jw
friends

i'm not a psychologist but a little logic tells you that somethings got to give.. i see too many witnesses who are falling into the "escalating commitment" trap.

your life is a mess, so you find the "truth"!.

next, you commit yourself further by dropping college.

Shawn10538

An incredibly insightful post. Thank you Melatron, whoever you are! I am not a psychologist either, but I did read Whe Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger, and what you are describing is exactly what occurred in the flying saucer cult that Festinger based his studies on. The technical term for what is happening is Cognitive Dissonance. As Witnesses experience dissonance in their lives between what they see and observe with their waking minds and what they are fed by the FDS, the only way to rid oneself of this dissonance is to respond by increasing one's commitment, especially in terms of effort in the preaching work, since nothing alleviates cognitive dissonance quite so well as converting another human being to your way of thinking.

I am personally satisfied as I see my family members committing themselves deeper and deeper in response to my regular sometimes subtle but other times not so subtle comments on inconsistencies in the WT. I know that eventually, everyones bubble bursts and they just burn out from exhaustion. It is very exhausting having to carry around an arsenal of denial and self-deception just so your fragile little social world won't breal apart into a million little pieces.

The fear of the personal Holocaust that will certainly occur if one "falls out of the truth" is really a reasonable fear since few families survive intact when one member decides enough is enough. Marriages, brothers, sisters all explode in a fiery ball crashing to the earth. When all is said and done, it is a rebuilding project that few are prepared and capable to undertake. Many just crawl into the bushes and die so to speak. They may reappear later or they may just stay missing. They may be homeless, take up substance abuse, commit suicide or become criminals. I met a man not long ago who did just that. He told me he was a Bethel elder in the 70s, and has lived on the streets since he came back from Bethel over 20 years ago. He can't stand the thought of rejoining society even still. He has been in prison many times for petty offences, but for him there will be no rehabilitation. He'll likely die on the streets. He always has enough energy to harass the local Witnesses though, and this is a funny sight to see.

25

Has the WTS ever sued a "brother" or any baptised Witness?

by Shawn10538 in

jw
friends

hopefully someone has some information on this.

i think it is an important question because from recent observation on another jw website, it has come up that some jw bethelites are suing the wts in workers comp cases after getting injured while at bethel.

this is big news to me since i have a similar case outstanding right now.

Shawn10538

Ok, how about this: the WTS is no better than any other worldly Satanic company or government in terms of it taking care of its workers, but is probably somewhat worse since they don't pay them and use techniques that I have listed from first hand experience of being in the infirmary at Bethel and the fact that they refuse to consider paying compensation of any sort to exiting Bethelites whether they are injured or not and are even going through the process of battling for their right to legally deny any worker compensation for injuries. After all, even Enron payed workers for injuries, cooperated with WC laws and gave severance packages, some of them quite large to their workers. Enron by the way, while being ruthless to its stockholders, and those counting on pensions, for the most part actually treated their workers quite well. I should know, I worked for Enron for several years and I had no complaints. With the WTS, I have plenty of complaints. Think about it, the WTS is not even thinking about providing for the retirement of its long time workers. At least Enron had a pension program before it was raided by a few elites at the top. At WTS, there was never even a dream of a pension, and extremely elderly Bethelites have no hope of ever surviving on the outside once they are passed retirement. They are literally trapped in those prison-like walls with a room mate they don't like or a wife. They can never ever leave. Think about it. Never, unless they are part of the elite ones and have special priveledges.

25

Has the WTS ever sued a "brother" or any baptised Witness?

by Shawn10538 in

jw
friends

hopefully someone has some information on this.

i think it is an important question because from recent observation on another jw website, it has come up that some jw bethelites are suing the wts in workers comp cases after getting injured while at bethel.

this is big news to me since i have a similar case outstanding right now.

Shawn10538

Thanks for the above comments. I just want to reply to Eduardo. First of all, according to every cult expert, exit counselor or any professional who regularly deals with destructive mind control cults: Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. It's a universally accepted fact by everyone except for the members of the cult itself. If you are a JW, then of course you are not going to say that you are in a cult. What cult member ever admitted to being in a cult? None. No cult member ever thinks they are in a cult. That is part of what makes them a cult member is that they do not have an objective view of themselves. If they did, then they would leave. If you are not and have never been a JW, then, you don't know the criteria for what makes a certain group a cult. Look it up. Simply read Realeasing the Bonds by Steven Hassan or a number of other books written on the subject. I have yet to read a book on cults that does not place JWs as a textbook example of a socially destructive mind control cult. If JWs aren't a cult, then neither are Moonies, Scientologists, Heaven's Gate, People's Temple, Branch Dividians because they all meet exactly the same criteria.

As far as the statement about worldly companies being compassionate, let me rephrase: The law makers who invented workers compensation and anyone who was involved in the process of voting it into law and anyone who respects the principles of workers compensation, including companies such as labor brokers who CAN opt to operate under loopholes to the WC laws, yet who choose to arrange for WC anyway, (I have one specific example in mind if you need it) are all more compassionate to the workers who benefit from such laws than the WTS, since the WTS vehemently fights to not have to take care of its beloved and appreciated workers when they are injured in their factories.

I'm not so naive as to literally believe that for profit companies would sooner dispense of WC, but there are many companies that bend over backwards to work under some loop hole in the law, like calling their employees independent contractors, when they know darn well that they are more like employees, or hiring undocumented workers. This is what the Society does, it says that they are not employees at all, similar to those who say that their workers are independent contractors, yet who pay the workers by the hour at a rate close to minimum wage and act like their bosses and fire at will and most of all who never actually write up contracts for their so-called contractors. I worked under this arrangement for many years for Witness contractors, in one case I injured my knee and the brother just said, "Sorry, you are not my employee." His name is John Mitchell of Azusa, CA and his company is JM Construction. This man bends over backwards to not pay WC.

"Worldly" Companies like Bigger Hammer, who is a labor contractor, technically has no law requiring it to carry WC insurance since its pool of laborers will be working as free lancers or be employed by the companies that hire them as temps via Bigger Hammer, yet Bigger Hammer insures every single person in its labor pool as a coutesy to its workers. This is a perk of that particular company and one feels taken care of and cared for when working with them.

When I was at Bethel, any time I had to see an MD, I first had to wade through a sea of assistants who seemed to have the sole purpose of minimizing my injuries and making sure I knew how much I was costing the society. Once I suggested that I might need an MRI and the physical therapist lectured me on how expensive they are! I never got that MRI. This was extremely unethical to try to shame a person out of getting needed treatment by proposing that I was being a "burden on the brothers."

So, again, I say, the Society in significantly less compassionate than worldly Satanic governments who made laws to protect workers from unscrupulous rackets like the WTS.

Shawn

60

What's so bad about Satan?

by robhic in

why is satan supposed to be so bad?

he gets the blame, sure, but what does he explicitly do?

that god had?

Shawn10538

....Oh and in regards to the above analogy, what kind of sick parent would invent a harmful liquid and keep it within reach of children? First of all, sick to invent it in the first place, second, irresponsible and ailing from a severe lack of knowlege about human behavior, not to mention, child behavior and development to put such a liquid within sight, not JUST within sight, but within REACH. Lastly, to leave someone else in charge of the kids knowing full well that without the parents' direct influence and presence the POSSIBILITY that they might ingest this harmful liquid (which was made to taste good by the way, making it a likely thing to want to ingest, which is even sicker) will be higher, or more likely, is wildly irresponsible and careless.

But let's not forget the most important thing here. Reality check. We're talking about an Egyptian/Summerian/North African myth here, not real life. I am of the opinion that anybody who takes the Bible seriously as a historical document instead of the contrived compilation of ancient myths and historical fiction by some Levitical priests shortly before the time of the "Christ myth" was said to have taken place, is sadly behind the times in terms of scholarship. It's barely tolerable that a person believes in any kind of God or spirit these days, but when we start saying crazy things like, "the Bible was written by God, inspired and infallible" or even "more important than other older middle eastern works" it just lets me know that the person saying it is just short on facts. Not that anybody has said that in this particular post series, but sometimes we get going on a bible story as if it really happened or is already proven or even provable, and that just isn't the case.

So in other words: Garden of Eden? talking snake? magic apples? Come on people? I know nursery rhymes that are more believable than that! Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin are better documented than that rot!

Respectfully athiest, yet strangely sympathetic to the "character" of Satan,

Shawn

60

What's so bad about Satan?

by robhic in

why is satan supposed to be so bad?

he gets the blame, sure, but what does he explicitly do?

that god had?

Shawn10538

All great stuff! Have you ever read any books by Anton La Vey? He makes similar points. The Satanic Bible is a great fun read and not scary or spiritistic at all strangely enough. Anything put out by the chuch of Satan is a lot of fun to read especially if you like witty and sarcastic stuff.

25

Has the WTS ever sued a "brother" or any baptised Witness?

by Shawn10538 in

jw
friends

hopefully someone has some information on this.

i think it is an important question because from recent observation on another jw website, it has come up that some jw bethelites are suing the wts in workers comp cases after getting injured while at bethel.

this is big news to me since i have a similar case outstanding right now.

Shawn10538

....Oh and the point of my question is that JWs cite the scriptural advice to not be suing a brother as applicable in any case where a brother might sue the society. My response is that the WTS is not a person, it is an organizational entity, but not alive like a human, so the scripture does not apply. My point would be better served, however, if I could cite some cases where the WTS used my logic in reverse and actually sued a fellow Witness. I'm sure they have, without a doubt, but who, when and where? Thanks for any input.

25

Has the WTS ever sued a "brother" or any baptised Witness?

by Shawn10538 in

jw
friends

hopefully someone has some information on this.

i think it is an important question because from recent observation on another jw website, it has come up that some jw bethelites are suing the wts in workers comp cases after getting injured while at bethel.

this is big news to me since i have a similar case outstanding right now.

Shawn10538

Hopefully someone has some information on this. I think it is an important question because from recent observation on another JW website, it has come up that some JW Bethelites are suing the WTS in Workers Comp cases after getting injured while at Bethel. This is big news to me since I have a similar case outstanding right now. Witnesses are quick to label anyone suing the society as rebelious and disloyal. But I see no contradiction in any Witness in good standing suing so they can be properly taken care of. Injuries impact a person's ability to fuinction not just while at Bethel, but for the rest of their lives. In Work Comp cases it is referred to as percentage of permanent disability, and every injury is given a ranking as to what percentage of permanent disability the injury has caused, be it a paper cut or loss of a limb. All injuries incur some percentage of permanent disability. Therefore the worker must be compensated for the impact it has on the rest of his life, not just their time at Bethel.

Additionally, it seems quite disingenuous on the Society's part to refuse a workers comp case on the basis of the Bethelite being a voluntary worker and not an employee in the traditional sense because due to the language of the oath one takes when getting baptised, all JWs are quite literally employees of the WTS. In fact, in 1983, the language of the oath was adjusted because the original language did not allow the WTS to legitimately disfellowship anyone. Anyone baptised prior to 1983, who was later disfellowshipped has a good legal basis to sue the Society for defamation of character among other things. The change of 1983 essentially made every Witness an employee, and therefore gave the WTS the right to "fire" anyone for any reason.

All of that aside, why are "Satanic, worldly" companies more appreciative, compassionate and willing to give due compensation to their workers than JWs and the WTS are to theirs? I think we all know it's because the WTS is a cult that is interested in its own wealth and jealously protects the lavish lifestyles of their rich and famous Governing Body.

Shawn