Posts by CPiolo

8

For forgetmenot, my concept of god, reposted

by seven006 in

jw
friends

firgetmenot,.

here is a cut and paste of a post where i gave my concept of god.

i enjoyed our conversation in chat last night and again, i appreciate your view point.

CPiolo

Dave:

No worries about the Zen quotes. I enjoy them. They seem to get to the crux of the matter with out so much of the extra baggage the Abrahamic faiths tend to add on. And I think you've made it pretty clear your not preaching anything to anybody other than treating each other with respect.

I enjoy Joseph Campbell as well. Your right that reading about a variety of disciplines gives one a more well rounded viewpoint and better insight into all that makes up and influences religious thought.

I checked out the link -- interesting. I've read other similar things and skimmed through a book that listed parallel sayings of Buddha and Jesus, very striking in their similarities. The Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas sounds very much like Buddha. We know that there was contact between Middle Eastern, European, and Indo-Asian cultures, so there has to have been some influence. The extent of that influence may be hard to discern, but is an interesting field of study. It is, as you say, a crack-up and quite ironic that all these "great" religions share so much yet adherents (with a few notable exceptions -- Ghandi, Huston Smith, Tich Nhat Hanh come to mind) can't find the middle common ground, but instead look for that which distinguishes their group in order to diminish those of a different ilk. They've been and continue to kill each other over these differences, even within the same faith. George Carlin comes to mind when I think about it. He thinks we're probably doomed as a species, but he's enjoying the show while it lasts.

CPiolo

41

Daily text - 1 Thess 5:19

by YoYoMama in

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friends

1 thess.

5:19 "do not put out the fire of the spirit.".

commentary:.

CPiolo

YoYoMama:

I have done the research. The "cartillas" are not the same thing as the Malawi political cards. Can't compare the two situations.

I respectfully disagree.

Cartillas: Official Mexican Government document to show the proper Mexican authorities that Mexican men had fulfilled their military service obligation. Jehovah's Witnesses paid cash bribes to Mexican military officials to forge time on their "cartillas" so that it appeared as if they had served in the military and fulfilled their obligation as Mexican citizens.

Malawi Politcal Card: A document stating that one was a member of the official Malawi political party, the only party allowed by the Malawi government; essentially a national ID card. Malawians refused to obtain these cards, didn't bribe government officials to forge one for them and were killed, raped, imprisoned, and/or beaten for their refusal. This was occurring all the while Mexicans were bribing their government representatives for official documentation.

What this demonstrates is a double-standard. The Watchtower organization required citizens of Malawi to suffer and/or die by refusing a political party card for the only official political party or in other words the party of the government, and as I said, essentially a national ID. At the same time Mexican citizens were bribing their military officials, paying money to the representatives fo the military, to forge their service cards (cartillas). In one country Witness citizens die for refusing government documents while around the globe other Witness citizens in another country pay bribes to government officials for another government document. True, they aren't the exact same government document, but both political and military association are prohibited by the Watchtower organization. I can clearly see how the two situations can be compared and the double-standard employed by the Watchtower that cost the lives of I don't know how many citizens in Malawi for refusing to participate in that which is prohibited by their religion, while permiting Mexican citizens another standard by which to avoid any price/punishment for their refusal of that prohibited by that very same religion.

Respectfully,

CPiolo

41

Daily text - 1 Thess 5:19

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

1 thess.

5:19 "do not put out the fire of the spirit.".

commentary:.

CPiolo

YoYoMama:

The Society spoke of the situation in Malawi in its own publications. Check out your Kingdom Hall library or CD-ROM. I believe this was documented in the secular press as well. Go to any library and do a search. A Witness wouldn't have a political card. They were persecuted for refusing them.

As regards "las cartillas" the forgeries were good enough to fool Mexican officials, so what good would showing one do? As I said, ask a Mexican Witness who has been a part of the organiization since this time about whether or not they forged their military service cards. Who better to tell you than someone in the "Truth." It's also common knowledge that Mexico, like many countries, including Argentina, the U.S., Israel, and Greece, have at one time or another required military service of its citizens for a specified time. It's also common knowledge that Mexico didn't allow churches to own real estate for many years. Again if you don't believe either that Mexico required military service or that they prevented churches from owning real estate, go do a little research. It would be very simple to verify these things at any decent library. If you have trouble, most libraries have people who's specific job is to help the public with research.

Cheers,

CPiolo

41

Daily text - 1 Thess 5:19

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

1 thess.

5:19 "do not put out the fire of the spirit.".

commentary:.

CPiolo

I thought I'd shed further light on the situation in Mexico. The Mexican goverment disallowed property ownership by religious organizations--any religious organization, not just the Watchtower. They seized church property, mostly from the Catholic Church, in an attempt to lessen the Church's influence in politcal matters. Here in the U.S. we are accustomed to seperation of church and state, but in much of Latin America the Catholic Church is very influencial in the political arena and priests even run for office. In order to appear fair, they elimated property ownership by all churches, not just the Catholic Church. This has since been rescinded and churces may now own property.

During this time the Watchtower claimed to be a social club and not a religious organization. I believe most people in Mexico saw through this ruse, but their real estate holdings in Mexico were not seized. But for an organization that says it's beliefs and "truth" are so important to them, I find it ironic that they would misrepresent themselves for monetary gain. As regards "las cartillas" I believe YoYoMama could ask any Mexican Witness who has been a part of the organization since that time if they actually forged these cards, while Malawians suffered and died for refusing a political party card.

And whoever said that the literature flowed in Argentina after the military regime ended its rule is correct. I can personally testify to seeing mountains of literature stacked in a store room of a Witness house in Argentina just a couple of years ago --all sorts of tracks, magazines and books published by the Watchtower. I helped clean them out and throw them away.

CPiolo

8

For forgetmenot, my concept of god, reposted

by seven006 in

jw
friends

firgetmenot,.

here is a cut and paste of a post where i gave my concept of god.

i enjoyed our conversation in chat last night and again, i appreciate your view point.

CPiolo

seven006:

Yes, listening to that little voice inside is something I become more adept at as time goes on. I find it often is correct and that by not listening to it, I often come to regret it later.

Part of listening to that little voice requires self-examination, something very difficult to do for most of us. A good hard look in the mirror often reveals things we'd prefer not to see. It's easier to look through the colored glasses of our preconceptions and prejudices, not only when examining ourselves, but when looking at others as well.

I am very thankful to my parents for always listening to me and my siblings, for encouraging tolerance and understanding towards others, for an openess to ideas and viewpoints other than ones own, for an environment where discussion and the exchange of ideas was encouraged. I was rarely punished for anything without a thorough (at times I felt a too thorough) explanation of why I was being punished and where my parents were coming from. My parents were by no means perfect, but I think that those lessons were extremely important for me.

You seem to quote Zen often. When I began to drift from my Christian world-view, I began looking at other religious thought and Zen and Taoism have been since that time the closest I can get to anything religious. Frankly, I don't believe in organized religion. And as another Chinese philosopher said, "Life's paths are like the spokes on a wheel; they all lead to the same place."

Good luck with the job search. It's a difficult time. I was in your shoes about nine months ago. Luckily, I found work pretty quickly, but I think it would be far more difficult for me today.

CPiolo

47

Why are witnessess persecuted?

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

why are witnessess persecuted?

most religions out there have this thing against witnesses.

many will do anything to get them banned or to shut their mouths.

CPiolo

YoYoMama:

Why are Witnessess persecuted?

The same reason Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Methodists, Calvinists, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. People are afraid of the unfamiliar. There isn't a religion on earth that can't make this claim. Sure some religions are persecuted more than others, but JWs certainly aren't more persecuted than many other religions. I think Jews have, in recent history, been far more persecuted than JWs. Right now there is probably much more anti-Mustlim sentiment in the western world than anti-JW.

As far as most religions having a thing against the Witnesses, I don't believe they have any more of a thing against Witnesses than they do against any other competing group. Most religions tend to believe they have the "Truth" or that their version of "Truth" is better or more accurate. Any others tend to viewed as inferior or having a lesser version of "Truth." Sound familiear?

I think JWs religious affiliation is often mentioned, because to most people who are not a part of the group, they are viewed as an oddity. They are those strange, but well dressed people that come to your door every so often preaching doom and gloom, who let members die when medical help is available, who refuse to participate in what most view as harmless activities, and who condemn traditions and practices many hold dear.

Most people have absolutely no conception of much of Witnesses believe. Some people who are old enough (like myself) remember things like their prediction about the world ending in 1975. That's more than enough for many to view Wit nesses as out to lunch religiously.

I know people who work with Witnesses or have Witness acquaintaces. None of these people have any animosity towards the Witness apart from those I know who are non-Witnesses, who were formerly married to a Witness and have issues about child rearing and custody issues during holidays.

I think the perception Witnesses have of being persecuted is overblown and exagerated by the organization. If anything, it's diminishing in many places. It's a good tool to draw people together and unite them in a common cause with a common enemy. This is clearly evidenced by the recent tragic events of Sept. 11th that have drawn together not only the U.S., but also much of the world, if even reluctantly.

What many fight the Witnesses over is what are regarded as human rights issues, i.e. the blood issue and the methods used to enforce compliance --shunning.

Oh, and I still want to reply to your latest post in the Spanish thread, I just haven't had much time the last few days, Been busy with family activities and work around the house.

¡Que te vaya bién!

CPiolo

8

For forgetmenot, my concept of god, reposted

by seven006 in

jw
friends

firgetmenot,.

here is a cut and paste of a post where i gave my concept of god.

i enjoyed our conversation in chat last night and again, i appreciate your view point.

CPiolo

seven006:

Many of the thoughts you describe I had as a teen. My journery away from a Christian point of view began then. So much of religion is based upon fear and punishment that I just couldn't buy it. In my view, the question you ask that gets to the bottom of the issue is: How can so many people manifest more "Christian" qualities than the Christian God? The love you describe for your sons is far more tolerant, compassionate, caring and unconditional than that required by the ancient tribal Hebrew God Yahweh. Your point of view is what I was taught by my Catholic parents as the correct one. The only problem was it didn't mesh with what I was taught about who God was.

Thanks for sharing,

CPiolo

16

Saying I'm sorry

by seven006 in

jw
friends

the words "i'm sorry" have been misunderstood in today's world to sometimes give the person who is saying it the position of being weak.

as if they are less than perfect because they are admitting they had made a mistake.

i see the opposite to be true.

CPiolo

Dave:

Good post. Seems that for whatever faults you may possess, and for however the WT messed you up, you've got your head on pretty straight now. Your posts are usually a voice of calm reason.

Your descriptions of arguing with your ex-wife stike a chord in me. They seem very similar to the arguments I have with my wife, and that my father had with my mother. Funny how sons repeat the sins of their fathers.

The image you try to maintain of your ex is also the image I try to maintain of my current JW wife, the woman who gave me the best thing in my life -- my son. I'd love to sit around and swap war stories sometime over a beer, but we're pretty far apart and I've never made it to Oregon. If you're ever in So. Cal. let me know.

Take care,

CPiolo

14

Business Territory

by Amazing in

jw
friends

business territory in the 1960s and 1970s: when i was first associated in the late 1960s, it was common to see jws roaming the streets of downtown districts, offering the magazines.

sometime in the early 1970s, after i had been a jw for a few years, we worked businesses directly.

this was especially true when certain events were newsworthy - such as the persecution of jehovah's witnesses in malawi.

CPiolo

Hello Amazing:

A couple of years ago I used to take the bus to work early in the morning. My bus stop was in a part of town with lots of small businesses. They weren't open at that hour, but often there was a seemingly odd JW gentleman (odd in manner and dress, I never spoke with him at length --he wore a long black overcoat and a hat similar to that worn by the Amish) offering literature on the sidewalk. He offered me some a couple of times. As well, while waiting at the bus stop, adults driving their children to school would, at times, stop and have the children offer literature.

CPiolo

4

The God Factor

by CPiolo in

jw
friends

just thought i'd share this with the board.

i found it pertinent for a couple of reasons.

first, it addresses the issue of abuses and obscenities commited in the name of 'god.

CPiolo

Frenchy:

You’re quite correct that the author only addresses one aspect of the ‘God factor.’ I believe that was his intention. And yes, he is angry, as so many were after the attacks of September 11th. Remember the context in which this was written.

It is true than many atrocities have been committed in the name of God but that does not make God the blame --although he catches the brunt of the accusation, even from people who claim not to believe in him!

This is what the author is addressing. It is not God we should blame (he obviously doesn’t believe in God), but ourselves! It the image we have created of God, and what we believe or are told God requires of us that permits us to perform such atrocities.

You are also correct in pointing out that religion has inspired some people to do good. But many have been inspired to equal good without a belief in God. Some without a belief in God have done terrible evils as well. But it would be difficult to find another single factor which has given human beings license to do the incredible number of horrible things we have done, and continue to do, in the name of God.

His choosing to remain outside our present realm, undetectable by anything except faith, is the canvas upon which we will paint our perception of him. The resulting concept will develop entirely within our own selves.

The authors point exactly! Read the last two paragraphs again. This is why he implores us to examine ourselves, with feeling or reason.

Proplog2:

Yes, some religions are better than others, some are more violent than others, some more aggressive than others. I don’t believe the author’s intent is to point his finger at any single belief system as being more responsible than another, although certain religions do share more of the responsibility than others for crimes committed against their fellow man.

CPiolo