Posts by CPiolo

32

So Are All Your Problems Brooklyn's Fault Then?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

in another post, jan h said about this site:.

...there is a very angry crowd there, for obviously and understandable reasons, who will accept no dissent regarding their core dogma: that the wts is responsible for all ills and problems in life.

if what he says is correct, then i am very alarmed at this.

CPiolo

Even though I’ve never been a JW, I thought I’d add my voice to the chorus.

First of all, when reading JanH’s post, I didn’t feel he was addressing everybody on this forum, but rather “a group” or element here. Of course, it would be easy, within any diverse group of individuals, to pick out a group that share a particular characteristic, be it good or bad. That in no way invalidates, what I feel, is Jan’s correct criticism.

Pointing your finger at some external entity as the cause of one’s problems is something most, if not all, human beings tend to do. I’ve done it and am sure I’ll do it again. Most here, including Jan have also done so at one time or another. It’s always easier to blame someone or something else for our problems. Sometimes we are correct, other times it is a rationalization we use to avoid self-examination, or to avoid putting in the effort and work necessary to change our lot in life.

That being said, those who do blame the WT for most or all of their ills, difficulties and/or misfortune are a diverse group of people in and of themselves. As others have already pointed out, they are in various stages of recovery and discovery. They came into the WT organization under many unique and individual circumstances and they left the same way. Some where raised as Witnesses and knew nothing else. Some where brought up in the organization by their parents beginning at various stages in their childhood/adolescence. Others chose, for whatever reasons, to become Witnesses on their own, under diverse circumstances and for diverse reasons. The circumstances that led up to the decision varied greatly as well. This board is a testament to that. It consists of individuals from countries throughout the world, form distinct cultures, races and ethnicities.

Here is where I feel Jan may have gone wrong. He lumped a group of people sharing one common trait into a group of “them” – those naysayers and whiners who blame everything on the WT. All who have been Witnesses have valid and real reasons to blame the Society for some of the bad aspects of their lives – for wasted time, for lost opportunities, for lost friendships and familial relationships, for lack of education, for false hopes and more.

How much blame the WT organization shoulders varies greatly dependent upon the individual circumstances of the individual. I don’t believe an adult who made the decision to become a Witness has as much to blame the Society for as does someone raised in “the truth.” The adult made an individual decision with far more knowledge, thought and life experience than did the child whose parents made the choice for them.

I will give a personal example. My wife was raised in the organization from an early age (4 or 5 or so). She knows almost no other religious point of view other than that provided by the WT. She’s been inculcated to fear all other religion, to distrust and view suspiciously any who are not part of “God’s organization,” and has been told what most here know very well the WT teaches its members is necessary to gain God’s favor and an opportunity to survive the ever impending Armageddon.

Does this cause problems in my relationship with my wife and in our marriage? It certainly does! Is the WT to blame for all our problems or even everything about my wife that causes conflict between us or those things “distinctly” Witness. I don’t believe so.

The Society isolates and insulates its members, to the best of its ability, from the outside influences and “the world.” In addition to that, my wife’s parents were over-protective and insulated here from much as well. The WT is totalitarian in its authority, oppressive and accepts no dissent or criticism without inflicting severe penalties. My wife grew up under a repressive and violent military dictatorship, where to openly criticize it or to do anything they deemed as “wrong” or contrary to their interests was to risk one’s life.

I don’t know how much blame belongs to the WT, how much blame belongs to my wife’s parents, how much belongs to her country, and how much she shares. There are many other factors to consider as well. Of course, I am responsible for some of our problems as well, and share the blame with my wife for others.

As Ginney, Amazing, Simon, Hillary_Step, Jankyn and others have already said, one can continue to blame the WT and feel sorry for themselves, or they can recognize the influence (both good and bad, for as they say in Spanish: “No hay mal de que bién no venga.” There is no bad from which good doesn’t come.) the WT has had, take the bull by the horns and get on with life. The ease of doing this depends upon individual circumstances. But to let the WT continue to effect how you live your life and what you do or don’t do as an individual is to let them win.

CPiolo

4

Letters to the Editor RE JW Abuse

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

yep... jws are so far off the radar screen that no one has written a letter to the editor about the article that was published in the dallas morning news on the 9th.. i was hoping that a non-jw would write in about it.

.

"as every one knows, there are mistakes in the bible" - the watchtower, april 15, 1928, p. 126 .

CPiolo

The article can be found here:

. http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/stories/051002dnnatjehovah.a0446.html

CPiolo

4

Letters to the Editor RE JW Abuse

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

yep... jws are so far off the radar screen that no one has written a letter to the editor about the article that was published in the dallas morning news on the 9th.. i was hoping that a non-jw would write in about it.

.

"as every one knows, there are mistakes in the bible" - the watchtower, april 15, 1928, p. 126 .

CPiolo

The article can be found here:

. http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/stories/051002dnnatjehovah.a0446.html

CPiolo

33

Help! I have fallen in love with a Witness

by itsalingthing in

i recently started dating my neighbor.

a couple of nights into the late night talks, he told me the reason he hasn't dated in awhile is beacuse he is a witness.

i was surprised, but okay with it.

CPiolo

Itsalingthing:

I would advise you to carefully consider your relationship with this man, as well as lesten to what you’ve been told here. You will be dealing with several issues as a non-Witness in a relationship with a Witness. Some of those have been related already, and these include: psychological/emotional issues, Witness xenophobia and distrust of outsiders, your place in the scheme of things (you will always come after organizational concerns and his loyalty to the religion), the inability of the Witness to participate in many things you take for granted (a list has already been posted to this thread), completely different social circles for the two of you (Witnesses are told to limit their relationships with outsiders to a minimum – proselytizing and necessary family business). Many of these you will be completely unaware of until they occur, unless you spend a lot of time investigating Witness history and belief, both official and unofficial (like this site).

Let me relate a little personal experience. I am a non-Witness married to a Witness and was romantically involved with another many years before I met my wife. On both occasions the different religious perspectives caused great difficulties.

The woman I dated was an un baptized Witness at the time, but was studying and for all intents and purposes a Witness. I knew little of Witness belief at the time except the usual – no birthdays, holidays, military service, blood transfusions. I had very strong feelings for this woman and she apparently did for me as well. We too engaged in some foreplay. This always resulted in her feeling terribly guilty afterwards. I repeatedly suggested that we didn’t engage in any activity that made her uncomfortable. Inevitably, she would instigate more physical contact than she was comfortable with.

Eventually she spoke to an Elder or Elders. We had several discussions, but she couldn’t/wouldn’t stop expressing herself sexually (a completely normal thing in my viewpoint). One afternoon she left my house and said she loved me. The next day I received a call saying she could no longer see me and that she had left some things of mine at a coffee house a couple of doors away form my apartment. I saw her only once more, when she came by to return one more thing of mine she had forgotten to leave with my other things. I had the feeling she wanted me to ask her to change her decision, but I’d had enough of the emotional roller coaster, and just said thanks and see you later.

Several years later, I talked with her by phone to ask her a couple of questions about something unrelated to us or Witness life. She was still a Witness and was in a relationship with a Jew. She had never, as far a I know, been in a relationship with a Witness. Her boyfriend previous to me was a Muslim.

I am now married to a Witness, although she wasn’t a Witness when we married. She had been brought up attending meetings with her converted Witness mother, but her father never converted. Her mother is now inactive and would probably be disfellowshipped for some things she does now (playing the lottery, attending services in other churches – family weddings). My wife is the only active Witness in hers or my families.

She returned to the group while going through some difficult emotional times. This is very common and I suggest you also read up on cult or high-control group issues (Steven Hassan has a couple of good books – Combatting Cult Mind Control, nonthreatening to a witness because it doesn’t mention the Wtinesses, and Releasing the Bonds). You could probably find these at a local library.

Her involvement affects our relationship in many important ways and my wife isn’t what I’d call a die-hard believer. We have few friends in common. Visiting my family can be difficult because this often occurs during holidays. Raising our son is contentious because she wants to indoctrinate him and I steadfastly refuse to let him participate in Witness events. I said I would allow him to attend a special event like the Memorial, as long as I attend as well. After all, he does spend holidays with other relatives, both hers and mine.

I am now prohibited from doing things we did before she returned – giving her birthday gifts, Mother’s Day gifts, going to weddings of friends together – unless they’re Witnesses, spending time with most of her friends – they, with one exception, never visit my wife while I’m at home. I did come home unexpectedly once while my wife had a Witness friend over. She left about as fast as she could without being rude. This friend has been a help to me in other ways though. She suggested moderation on my wife’s part when I put up Christmas lights, pointing out that I tolerated my wife’s beliefs and that she should tolerate mine.

All in all my first reaction to those in situations like yours is to tell you, as another poster already had, to run like hell. The pain of ending a relationship with someone with whom your in love is less painful than the pain of a loving a Witness. But, of course, I can’t do that.

I would however advise extreme caution. Take it very slow. Investigate as much as possible both the Watchtower Tract and Bible Society, high-control/cult groups and their effects on members. Consider very carefully what you want in a relationship, how important to you those things are, if they are possible with a Witness, how you will feel if you have to give them up, what issues you might have over raising a child, if your relationship progresses that far. Some of these things are hard to anticipate. I will tell you that I know of no one who is a non-Witness married to or in a relationship with a Witness who doesn’t have serious differences and difficulties with the Witness, unless religion, child rearing and a activities with the other person are not important to that person.

Best of luck to you,

CPiolo

11

How JW's Blew My Missus' Bible Study...

by Englishman in

jw
friends

it's true, she really did have someone call to take a bible study with her.. it had been set up by my parents who had convinced her that it was her duty to look into the religion that their wayward son (moi!

) had rejected.. she studied for 3 or 4 weeks, she eventually became frustrated with the methods that were used, she said that she didn't mind them supplying some answers, but she was blowed if she was going to allow them to supply the questions as well!.

it all ended unhappily, as she was voicing her opinion to the lady "study conductor", her little boy (a horrible spoiled brat) emptied out the contents of hl's handbag onto the floor, revealing a half pack of benson & hedges king size.. the woman was appalled at this, and was stupid enough to tell hl that she would have to give it up if she was going to get into the kingdom.

CPiolo

gsx1138:

Now if I could just get my mom out of the Borg all would be good. She said her reason for staying in is that, "JW are the only ones to explain the kingdom of God to her in a way the made sense." Any ideas?

This makes sense?

The Truth (as I seen it)
According to Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gary Busselman

, http://www.freeminds.org/buss/truth.htm

GOD is the creator, but since he only created Michael,
and Michael created everything else, ("all other things")
that would seem to make Michael the real creator,
but only in a sense, since Michael is Jesus and Michael said to Satan,
"the Lord rebuke you" makes the Lord powerful over Satan,
however when Michael had to throw Satan out of heaven in 1914
he had to do battle with his own creations, Satan and His Angels,
and in 1918 when he selected Joe Rutherford to be his earthly channel
and had to put the truth in the mind of Joe
so Joe could write the truth in the Watch Tower
and build Beth Sarim.

All this would be hard to understand if it were not for the "salvation" doctrine,
which is easy to understand since the living evildoers
will all be made dead at Armageddon
and the dead evildoers will be made alive at Armageddon,
thus the living sinners will die and the dead sinners will live,
except the dead who are made alive will not really be made alive again
but when they die God kinda makes a sort of computer chip, in a sense,
of all the information in their brains,
like their memories, thoughts, and personality
and keeps this stored in heaven
and the Angels that don't join up with Satan help
and then after Armageddon, God makes a perfect replica body,
and somehow inserts this memory chip in the perfect replica body
and then he will judge that new creation of the old person
who was dead but is now alive, sort of,
by how he treats the anointed who are mostly dead
but are represented by the Governing Body, who are not inspired
but only receive Divine direction,
and by how well he follows the directions of the Organization
and if he sins he dies.

To survive Armageddon, the only way is to be serving God
in the only Organization that has the truth, Jehovah's Witnesses.
The truth is defined as the current teachings of the Governing Body
which largely consist of denying their own past teachings
and condemning views that are held by other groups
that the Governing Body will someday adopt as their "new light"
and "the truth". Serving God is defined as attending the five weekly meetings
of Jehovah's Witnesses, reading all of the weeks lessons before the meetings,
including underlining the answer to the questions at the bottom of the pages
in the paragraphs with a red marker, (yellow highlighter is optional
as long as it is used in moderation) answering any questions you may come up
with by yourself, while you keep those questions secret and to yourself,
by looking up the proper subject headings in the Index published by the Society
and referencing to the proper Watchtower article
while attending meetings for field service
and going out in cars to try to recruit new members into the group
and to solicit contributions to be turned into the group leaders
in exchange for Watchtower publications that members paid for
at the Kingdom Hall using the voluntary donation arrangement
that was adopted after the Society failed in their attempt to defend Jimmy Swaggert
in the Supreme Court of California
after the Superior Authorities fell out of love with him
and charged him with avoiding sales tax on literature sales
and all Witnesses must do this or they die.

Loyalty to "Jehovah's Organization" is important
since surviving Armageddon is contingent on how well
we vindicate Jehovah's name which is really YHWH
and pronounced Yahweh by most Biblical scholars
only since that was changed to sanctify
and it now is to exalt Jehovah's Name, not to vindicate anymore,
and to announce the kingdom that was set up in heaven in 1914 after Jesus
returned invisibly in 1874
and again in 1914 for the separating of the sheep and the goats
by selling Watchtower publications door to door
and then in 1995 this was changed to
not separating the sheep from the goats
but to require all Jehovah's Witnesses to believe
that the separating of the sheep and the goats will be a future event
to begin after the start of the Great Tribulation
except that Jesus had to actually start his judging of the sheep and the goats in 33 AD
and that he only picked 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
and the number was filled in 1935
and then the earth was going to be used for the testing ground
for all the re-created dead sinners and Jehovah's Witnesses for 1000 years
because this all ties into the date of 1914
which was arrived at by Nelson Barbour by adding 30 years to William Miller's
failed Apocalypse expectation date of 1844 which was arrived at by adding a
year to the previously failed date of 1843, to arrive at 1874, which when
the end didn't come, he added 40 more years to come up with 1914 which
Charles Taze Russell adopted and changed to 1915 when the Apocalypse didn't
come in 1914 then to 1918 when it didn't come in 1915, then he died.

This is all so simple that a child could understand
especially in view of the fact that the seven trumpets of Revelation
were the seven Jehovah's Witness District assemblies from 1922 to 1928,
starting with Cedar Point, Ohio and ending with Detroit, Michigan,
only they weren't called Jehovah's Witnesses then
but since Jehovah picked them in 1918 he waited until 1931
to give them his name while the generation living in 1914
and of the age of understanding, about 12 or 15, when World War One broke out,
except it had been breaking out for a number of years before 1914,
meaning that the generation that saw 1914 would by no means pass away
before Armageddon started and "by no means"
indicates that the majority would be living and never die
since Jesus told Joe Rutherford that "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"
by an angel and Joe wrote a book about the dead Princes,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and others would be resurrected to the earth in 1925
and live in a house he built for them in 1929 in San Diego, California
except he lived in it himself
because he thought the start of World War Two would be the beginning of Armageddon
and then he died.

Usually this is best understood by believing the truth as Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz
wrote about it in the Watchtower since they knew that service was the answer
and that six thousand years since Adam and Eve ended in 1975
and that maybe, might, could, should be the start of Armageddon
but they don't remember writing anything about 1975
and they couldn't say for sure when Eve was created
and besides so many were going to prison because they were loyal to God
by refusing alternative service to active military duty
and no one was taking organ transplants or buying Girl Scout Cookies
and then they died.

Sometimes the truth comes as flashes of light and the vaccinations,
and organ transplants are now all okay and the drafted boys don't go to prison
but stay at home to be elders and pioneers instead of going to jail
and the sheep are waiting and the goats are waiting too
and the generation of 1914 waited too,
then they died.

CPiolo

12

How Many?

by CPiolo in

how many poor gullible farmers paid extra for charles russells miracle wheat, only to find out that it performed no better, and more than likely, worse than many other less expensive varieties of wheat?.

how many egyptians used feet and inches to measure the pyramids centuries or millennia before such a system was invented?.

how many witnesses read the stone bible.. how many planets in how many galaxies did god look at before deciding to live on alcyone in the pleiades constellation?.

CPiolo

Hi Hawk:

No worries. Like I said to Prisca, my life's been hectic lately and I haven't had much time for other matters. I do take the time to read this forum when the opportunity arises. From that, I see you continue to fight the good fight.

All the best,

CPiolo

12

How Many?

by CPiolo in

how many poor gullible farmers paid extra for charles russells miracle wheat, only to find out that it performed no better, and more than likely, worse than many other less expensive varieties of wheat?.

how many egyptians used feet and inches to measure the pyramids centuries or millennia before such a system was invented?.

how many witnesses read the stone bible.. how many planets in how many galaxies did god look at before deciding to live on alcyone in the pleiades constellation?.

CPiolo

Re: How Many? May 5, 2002 20:22
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simon:

Thanks! I’m interested in why a Brit would use Ernesto “Che” Guevarra as their icon? Obviously, he rebelled against the status quo and his particular upbringing, but why an Argentine and not someone British, say Thomas Paine or Bertrand Russell.

I’m in the middle of a biography of Che by Anderson, very long, but very interesting. I’ve also visited the area in Argentina – Cordoba - where Che spent most of his youth – a very beautiful place.

Earnest:

If you can’t trust yourself, who can you trust?

What we know and understand is continuously revised, updated, thrown away, and changed. As you pointed out, even the best minds that have existed have been mistaken, badly mistaken at times. Those great minds were also blinded by their culture, their time, and the limited knowledge they possessed.

That’s also why continuous self-examination is necessary. That’s why hearing more than one side of something is so very important. That’s why knowledge is so tenuous. That’s why we shouldn’t be too dogmatic. Life often has a way of humbling one.

I also think you’re being a little hard on yourself. You have as much capacity as anyone to learn and grow. You seem to be looking for hard and fast answers. I don’t believe there are any. Those who think they have them feel comfortable and cozy in their illusion, but again as you pointed out, even the best minds have been wrong.

I find it amusing that so much time is spent arguing about the nature of God. We don’t even understand ourselves nor the universe in which we live. Yet, so many expend so much effort trying to prove that they know the nature of the ‘true” God (who supposedly created all this that we do not understand), and are so certain they are correct. The sheer arrogance is astounding.

What seems to me to be important is to enjoy the trip. Learn, discover, experience, and enjoy as much as you can.

Regarding those with a simple faith, most people are sheep, literal sheep looking for someone to lead them, to tell them what to do and what to believe. It may appear comfortable, but what results is that one is at the mercy of those who would choose to lead you. As this forum is a testament to, often one wakes from a blissful slumber only to find that what they’ve been led to is a lie, and that they’ve been used and manipulated for something other than their own good, oftentimes for the benefit of those doing the leading. And I don’t believe that all of them are as comfortable as they would have you believe. If they were, they wouldn’t be so insistent that everyone agreed with them.

And once you take of the blinders, look behind the curtain and begin to discover your own truths (notice the lower case “t”), you can’t go back to being at the mercy of another.

Cpiolo

P.S. Here’s a link to an insightful look at organizational truth:

http://www.freeminds.org/fishin/ideas.htm

When you confer spiritual authority on another person, you must realize that you are allowing them to pick your pocket and sell you your own watch. -- Alan Watts, Still the Mind

Edited to remove repetitive content.

12

How Many?

by CPiolo in

how many poor gullible farmers paid extra for charles russells miracle wheat, only to find out that it performed no better, and more than likely, worse than many other less expensive varieties of wheat?.

how many egyptians used feet and inches to measure the pyramids centuries or millennia before such a system was invented?.

how many witnesses read the stone bible.. how many planets in how many galaxies did god look at before deciding to live on alcyone in the pleiades constellation?.

CPiolo

Prisca:

I haven't posted much lately for a variety of reasons - the principal one being a lack of time. Work has been crazy, and my personal life has been just nuts as well. But thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate it.

CPiolo

8

Don`t know much about the bible!

by Beans in

has anyone read this book?

my good friend quotes read it and gave me a brief description about it and said that if the research done on this book was correct it gives great sceptacism on bible facts and credability!

now i believe one example was the dude who wrote the first five books in the bible (moses i think but i can`t remember) but in the fifth book it says that he lived to be 900 so odd years in the third person revealing that it was not this person who wrote these books?.

CPiolo

Here are a couple by Robert Ingersoll to peruse and think about:

. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/about_the_holy_bible.html

. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html

For more:

. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

CPiolo

12

How Many?

by CPiolo in

how many poor gullible farmers paid extra for charles russells miracle wheat, only to find out that it performed no better, and more than likely, worse than many other less expensive varieties of wheat?.

how many egyptians used feet and inches to measure the pyramids centuries or millennia before such a system was invented?.

how many witnesses read the stone bible.. how many planets in how many galaxies did god look at before deciding to live on alcyone in the pleiades constellation?.

CPiolo

it is so clear. Why don't they see it ?

Why is it that people get sucked into these type of things and believe it whole-heartily? Why is it some people are easier to convince than others? Is this why they get their prospects from obituaries?

I believe they don’t see for a couple of reasons. Foremost, Witnesses have had it drummed into their heads that the organization is God’s earthly representative, that it is ‘the Truth,’ that to doubt the organization is equivalent to doubting God himself.

People not born into a group like the Witnesses get sucked in for many reasons. I suggest the book “The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer or one of the many books about high-control groups (“Releasing the Bonds” by Steve Hassan is one) for an in-depth look at the phenomena. To be part of something larger than oneself feeds the ego. We all want to feel good about ourselves, to do the “right’ thing, to please others, etc. What could be bigger than God’s very own organization or of some ultimate “Truth?”

Most Witnesses are only trying to do what they see (after having been coerced and indoctrinated unethically, by the standards of mental health care professionals) as the right thing, much like anyone else. But, as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

To doubt the aforementioned is to risk a lot – the loss of friends and family, or one’s entire social circle, the loss of God’s favor, a violent death at Armageddon, and to lose the hope of resurrection in an earthly paradise. This is the worldview of Witnesses, whether one agrees with it or not, whether it is complete make-believe and fantasy or not.

As well, how many of us earnestly examine ourselves, our beliefs, our worldview and try to find where we’ve gone wrong or what parts and/or aspects are incorrect? Not many. Most people believe what they’ve been told by those in authority – parents, teachers, clergy, so-called “experts,” and the media. Witnesses just narrow it down quite a bit and don’t believe anything that contradicts what the organization says is true, for the reasons above.

All of us are blind to certain things. Being open and willing to test one’s opinions and knowledge is, I believe, an admirable albeit rare quality in an individual. The individuals here who have done this, or are in the process of doing this have great courage and my deep admiration. This has led them to many different points of view, but they did it on their own. Read this link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=26842&site=3 for a feel about the effects of such and examination for a Witness. It’s a difficult, depressing and painful process.

CPiolo