I agree there, let them do what they are going to do when they are ready to do it. But, nothing wrong with finding out that they have CHOICES in life ASAP. Can't really make any plans till you realize you've got a choice. I wouldn't wish on anyone to have the difficulty with it that I had in a drastic and sudden exit, yet it was the only way it could have happened for me. It is better to have as much outside support as possible with the exit, and in the absence of some exceptionally wise friends professional help is highly recommended of course.
Sentient
JoinedPosts by Sentient
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Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Jehovah's Witnesses: All About Money
by joelbear in.
printing books and magazines over and over again that say basically the same thing.. my newest thought on this.. why not just put the watchtower in pdf format on their web site.
publishers could download as many copies as they need for their family for the study.. you could hold studies online.. no need to print literature anymore..
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Sentient
I agree joelbear, the real issue in that would be the lack of donations from the pubs...couldn't bear to lose all that income. Unless...you could have a Watchtower article about the new "pdf arrangement" and show how Luke 6:30 proves that we must put money in the donation box for pdfs we download.
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SELF ESTEEM in the organization
by justice for all indid your self esteem increase or decrease after being in the organization for a while?
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Sentient
The Org taught me that my worth and value as a human being was dependent on whether I continued to be a member, and how valuable a member I could prove myself to be. My parents also instilled in me the "loyal love" concept you speak of daniel-p. So I felt self-esteem when I was inside as a hard working slave, but I would call it more "other-esteem" because it wasn't based on any inherent value of myself alone independent of obedience. Which was why I initially felt utterly worthless after leaving because I had learned the intended lessons very well. I'm glad for all of you who didn't buy into it as much.
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Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Sentient
anewme- Humans seek comfort, different people need different levels of comfort.
I agree with that.
People who are emotionally devastated are far more likely to be persuaded by a Witness than someone who is in relative peace and contentment with Ben Affleck.
I agree with that too (provided Ben Affleck doesn't break you heart).
But I can in all humble honesty say that it is not in the best interests of anyone to be converted to this group and that every single Jehovah's Witness is blind to what has happened to them...if they weren't they would not continue with the group, or would certainly be in great emotional turmoil once they realize what is really going on. Their IQ is not at issue here. You can call it brainwashing but if that prevents someone from listening then call it something else less offensive. Whatever you call it, the result of it is the same.
I also concur that trying to shame an individual or make them feel humiliated for being a Witness will not assist them in leaving but will drive them away from you. But we can explain the shamefulness (shameful because it creates shame to control) and the harmfulness of an abusive system of belief and action, comparing it with a healthier view or way of living. Patience and tact is needed to do this with a believer, but for a nonbeliever to minimize the real and harmful aspects of the system itself is counterproductive to helping such ones. I give anyone who does minimize it the benefit of the doubt that they do not fully understand the psychology of the system itself, and that is why I invite them to a rational discussion here.
Mysterious- see my comments to anewme above. Of course I am not advocating accosting Witnesses in a rage yelling, "YOU ARE BRAINWASHED AND YOU MUST DISOWN EVERYTHING YOU HOLD DEAR IMMEDIATELY!" or "FREE YOUR MIND YOU ARE CONTROLLED!" That would not have worked on me then, and it will not work for any of them now. You do have to keep in mind your audience when communicating with anyone. Here in this thread, my intended audience is not necessarily believers but those who have knowledge of JWs but do not believe. Of all people in the world, you are the ones with the greatest potential influence over current JWs. Please point out anything irrational or inaccurate in what I am saying, or any actions I have advocated that you think will not be helpful. My intent is to heal, not to hurt.
darkuncle29- True, we could probably say you are fool for wearing the Armani in the middle of the night and getting mugged. For your part, after having realized your mistake or your foolishness, you would use that experience to be wiser in the future. Still, if a person had compassion for you they would focus not on your foolishness but on the violence of those who mugged you.
Here though we're talking about something a *lot* more complex than that analogy can describe. I don't think lacking common sense or having a low intelligence quotient is a requisite for being drawn into this organization. This is a misconception. People become Jehovah's Witnesses (and members of other highly controlling groups) not because all the beliefs appeal to them but because of the *technological process* used to psychologically manipulate them into accepting all the doctrines and rules until eventually they are in essence slaves of the organization. Those raised in it usually return to it because of the effectiveness of this process of fear and guilt implantation.
Knowing what I know now, if I were a person of ill intent I could construct an entirely different set of doctrine and using this process, form my own highly controlling organization of servants who see me as god's mouthpiece and distribute literature for me. I could easily find enough vulnerable people to form my core of loyal followers. It is sick really, to have this degree of control over another human being. The video Randy has up on his site satirically nails it on the head and exposes some of these techniques for what they are. This type of system comes in many different brands and flavors, but the objective and result is the same. IMO it is not spirituality, it is sickness when it becomes like this. Some have called it "spiritual rape", and I understand why. Look beyond the shadows cast to see what cast the shadows.
http://www.randytv.com/coreylan.html
For me, I assume that every Witness would choose freedom if they really understood what happened to them rather than assume that there is just inherently something wrong with them or they just wouldn't want help even if I tried to help them. Patiently penetrating their group-imposed psychological defenses enough to get them to understand that is the tricky part. They do have to *allow* that to happen, but I think we have a greater influence on whether or not they allow it than we realize.
Deft, patience and cunning...I suppose so. Also, understanding, respect and love. It takes a lot in a person to get through to a hardcore Witness just enough to get the wheels of free thought turning.
"Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." -Oliver Wendell Holmes -
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Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Sentient
I disagree, yaddayadda. Being true to yourself and being able to finally respect yourself and feel good about yourself is worth any supposedly "too high" emotional cost that it takes to get there. The tragedy is not the high emotional cost of leaving but the higher emotional cost of the bondage of staying. And again, it isn't just about them, it's also about the people they will keep sucking in and hurting by perpetuating the viscious cycle for as long as they do. There are degrees of control, and in this case we are not talking about just "any other religion".
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JWD WAS ABLE TO CONVINCE ME THE PARADISE WAS A MYTH BUT...
by stillAwitness inthe talk given today sounded pretty convincing.
facts were stated about how our body is designed to live forever (the brain, blood vessels etc) and how all these intricated details about the human body raises us to ask the question: "did not jehovah design us with the purpose of living forever?
now i've read the threads about how there just would not be enough room in the world for all those people.
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Sentient
One of the most transformative things I learned was this: "Your beliefs are not gospel."
This is a hard pill to swallow at first, even for an average person who was never been a Witness, but especially for someone who was and who believed that virtually all of their beliefs were gospel. When you realize the full extent of truth of that statement, you can finally see the reality that everything we have been taught has been the result of where we happened to be born.
If you were raised in a small island somewhere in the Pacific where no one ever heard of the Bible, you would have very different basic ideas about the nature of reality. But if you are that person on the small island, you don't need anyone to come save you from your "predicament". You'll do just fine without ever knowing about some savior that you supposedly need, you probably would believe in many gods or in an entirely different concept of God.
So paradise earth? No, not likely. I'm with DannyBloem...if you want your life to be a paradise, if you want the world to be a paradise, then it's all up to YOU to make it that way. Waiting for someone else to fix our problems doesn't allow us to take full responsibility for ourselves and our lives and our world. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life worrying so much about what's going to happen after I die that I forget about the importance of living NOW. I think there is greater freedom, love and peace in abandoning any strict ideas about the nature of what is real.
A question I would always pose to family who guilted me for "giving up my everlasting life"...how long does a life have to last for it to be truly meaningful and worth living? 20 years? 80? 100? A billion? I don't think we can even yet, if ever, understand the nature of time and human consciousness. -
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Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Sentient
I understand what you're saying in your mother's case Sparkplug. There are always exceptions, and especially very near the end of life and without even the ability to make the change, it probably would do more harm than good. Then it's just a case of human compassion not to make someone suffer more than they already have. But the vast majority of the time, that is not the case and there is the ability to change. I think what a Witness most needs in that situation is for someone outside who cares to truly believe in them, and not to assume that they need the Org to survive.
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Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Sentient
Okay, I'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the WTBTS teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the Witnesses such as:
1. "but if it makes you happy..."
2. "...more power to you..."
3. "...it's your choice..."
4. "...I have no right to tell someone else what is right for them..."
5. "...maybe some people can't survive without it..."
etc.
Some of these are very good words to live by for life in general. But I would like to stimulate some rational thought on these cliches regarding the body of beliefs and way of life represented by Jehovah's Witnesses. If you read my posts here so far you know the feeling that I have for individual members still trapped inside, and my refusal to hate the GB as they hate me. But in reply to the above statements that I keep hearing, I would like to respond:
1. NO ONE who is one of Jehovah's Witnesses is able to know what it means to be free or happy until they leave. Only then do they have a chance to live a life of their own choosing. Only those of us most involved who had convinced ourselves we were happy inside truly understand how that is so.
2. Why do you wish more power to someone who devotes their life to promoting a teaching that strips people of one of their most basic rights, freedom of thought? Do you not realize that the more people support the Org, the more unsuspecting, ignorant people will become victims of their system?
3. Believing something because you were subjected to a sustained, calculated system of indocrination without your knowledge of what was happening...does this count as a choice? What about the children who will fall victim to it, either members' own children or those receiving home bible studies? When their suggestible minds are subjected to this treatment, is it a freely chosen belief? Do you realize this is anethema to the most basic principles of human freedom by any interpretation?
4. If you are familiar with the beliefs or indocrination process, do you at least feel confident that it is very harmful to any person who allows themselves to come under that control? If not how could you rationalize it as being "not as wrong for some people"?
5. Are you aware of how many hardcore, unquestioning members have left and found more freedom and peace in their lives than they ever knew was possible? What leads you to conclude that any person does not have the inner strength necessary to escape from such an self-hating lifestyle and find peace? I think we need to give these individuals a little more credit. -
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Calling all apologists/sympathizers...
by Sentient inokay, i'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the wtbts teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the witnesses such as: .
"but if it makes you happy..." .
"...more power to you..." .
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Sentient
Okay, I'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the WTBTS teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the Witnesses such as:
1. "but if it makes you happy..."
2. "...more power to you..."
3. "...it's your choice..."
4. "...I have no right to tell someone else what is right for them..."
5. "...maybe some people can't survive without it..."
etc.
Some of these are very good words to live by for life in general. But I would like to stimulate some rational thought on these cliches regarding the body of beliefs and way of life represented by Jehovah's Witnesses. If you read my posts here so far you know the feeling that I have for individual members still trapped inside, and my refusal to hate the GB as they hate me. But in reply to the above statements that I keep hearing, I would like to respond:
1. NO ONE who is one of Jehovah's Witnesses is able to know what it means to be free or happy until they leave. Only then do they have a chance to live a life of their own choosing. Only those of us most involved who had convinced ourselves we were happy inside truly understand how that is so.
2. Why do you wish more power to someone who devotes their life to promoting a teaching that strips people of one of their most basic rights, freedom of thought? Do you not realize that the more people support the Org, the more unsuspecting, ignorant people will become victims of their system?
3. Believing something because you were subjected to a sustained, calculated system of indocrination without your knowledge of what was happening...does this count as a choice? What about the children who will fall victim to it, either members' own children or those receiving home bible studies? When their suggestible minds are subjected to this treatment, is it a freely chosen belief? Do you realize this is anethema to the most basic principles of human freedom by any interpretation?
4. If you are familiar with the beliefs or indocrination process, do you at least feel confident that it is very harmful to any person who allows themselves to come under that control? If not how could you rationalize it as being "not as wrong for some people"?
5. Are you aware of how many hardcore, unquestioning members have left and found more freedom and peace in their lives than they ever knew was possible? What leads you to conclude that any person does not have the inner strength necessary to escape from such an self-hating lifestyle and find peace? I think we need to give these individuals a little more credit. -
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If You Had Internet Access Years Ago----Would You Have Gotten Out Sooner?
by minimus ini don't know if i could've 15 years ago because of having nowhere else to go, but now i know i couldn't stay.
what about you??
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Sentient
As I related in my personal experience, years ago for a couple of months I posted on a forum at Witnesses.net (wonder if any here were there at that time)? Then I was a defender and I think that board then was more defenders than apostates. Posting on those forums was the first exposure I ever had to criticism of the GB, which speaks volumes about the information control of the Org. I feared what I was seeing, so I abandoned reading anything further from opposers for years. I even later related an Assembly experience as an MS about how I had thwarted Satan's attempt to corrupt me through internet apostate influence! What a "fine example" to the young ones I was then.