Posts by cyberguy

24

The District Convention, AKA things the WTS could never get away with putti

by Winston Smith :>D in

just got back from the three-day convention.

some have posted notes here already.

this was my first convention as an apostate as i have just awoken to the wts a couple of weeks ago.

cyberguy

Winston, you said: This was my first convention as an "apostate" as I have just awoken to the WTS a couple of weeks ago.

What was the thing that finally woke you up?

10

i have been doing "scriptural battle" with my mother and step-father who have been practicing witnesses for nearly 40 years (i did not grow up in their household), and i need an answer to a question i have not been able to find on every jw website i have been scouring.

perhaps someone out there can enlighten me!(?).

i am trying to understand where the wtbs got the idea that they are "jehovah's faithful and discreet slave"?

cyberguy

How do they convince "believers" that they are "ordained" from God to teach the rank and file?

They just say they are and the R&F believes it! Of course, a lot of religious do the same; somehow the clergy has a special relationship with God that the laity doesn’t enjoy. However, JW’s will say that they don’t have such a church hierarchy with class distinctions, but their religious structure speaks otherwise. Please consider: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, it’s probably a duck!

What scriptural evidence do they give to prove that JW's are supposed to go through an organization for biblical interpretation, and pledge their loyalty to it, to boot?

As mentioned by "

greven ," they interpret Matthew 24:45-51 as applying to a so-called "anointed class." There are a number of problems with this interpretation, however. They also claim to have been punished by God for 3 ½ years, starting in 1914, for holding fast to the teachings of false religion (so-called, "Christendom"). Somehow, however, God determined they would repent, because he appointed them "the faithful slave" "class" in 1919, even though they had not make any changes up to that time and for many years to follow! Have your parents explain this! If they don’t agree, then have them explain what doctrines were changed before 1919 that allowed "God’s people" to be released from "Babylon the Great." I don’t know of any!

For example, the "cross" was used up to 1933 (circa… I’m pulling this from memory… if you want I can be more specific I can look this up; I do recall an old-time JW mentioning this change—they lived through it). Many other beliefs were held beyond the 1919 date. This included the teaching that the Egyptian Pyramid at Gaza, somehow figured-into the Biblical end-time calculations of the Bible. This was later rejected years after 1919—but according to an old-timer friend of mine was still be taught in the congregations well into the 1930’s! Remarkably, the "powers-to-be" in Brooklyn-Bethel (Watchtower) currently say that (somehow) God foresaw that his people would make changes after 1919, so credited them with having made major doctrinal changes prior to 1919, even though they had not made any, not a single one (go figure)!

Anyway, which is it: were they "naughty" or "nice" in 1914 (they claim to be viewed by God as the "Faithful Slave" starting in 1914). If they were "faithful " and "discrete" then why did God have to cast them into figurative "Babylon the Great," in order to be punished, because they were very wicked, as described in the book of Revelation (as they claim to fulfill)? And how could God thereafter view them as the "faithful and discrete slave," when they hadn’t made any changes in their doctrines up to 1919 and well beyond? Once again (I’ll assume your parents won’t initially agree), ask your parents which doctrines were changed, then look them up in the "Proclaimer’s" book (JW’s recent history book) to see when they actually were changed!

The misapplication of Matthew 24:24-51 is very sad, because a closer examination shows that it was really meant to help disciples of Christ Jesus not set a date for his return! This was the real reason the illustration was given. If you look carefully, there is only one "slave" mentioned in the prophecy. He could turn out "faithful and discrete" or "evil." Hence the "slave" is really individual "Christians" from the time of Christ until now.

What is the difference between the two courses of the "slave?" Please read the illustration and you’ll find that somehow the "evil" slave figures-out that his "master" is "delaying" and subsequently "beats" his fellow "slaves." Now how would he know this? Evidently, he somehow determines the time of his Lord’s return, whereas the "faithful and discrete" slave does not do so. He waited patiently, knowing the "master" could return at any time. Because the master doesn’t return when the "evil" slave determines, he "beats" his fellow slaves.

Previously, Jesus said "prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming." (Matt. 24:44) This verse occurs just before the "faithful and Ddiscrete / evil slave" illustration. Really then, the illustration was to help Christ’s disciples be always ready, but prevent building false expectations/speculations of his return! Please realize this runs counter to JW beliefs! JW’s believe that, somehow, one can calculate when the Lord is going to return and that, somehow, this was in 1914!

Anyway, ask your parents how many "slaves" are mentioned in this illustration! Most JW’s will answer two. However, even Watchtower acknowledges that there is only one "slave" in the illustration (see Watchtower’s "God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years", 1973, pages 358-360). This is a real eye-opener to most JW’s from my experience! I'm sure your parents will be surprised too. Then the next logical question is, if there's only one "slave," then how does the Watchtower come up with two "slave classes?"

What is it that is being taught to JW's to make them believe the WTBS is "God's visible organization"?

Once again, the R&F is basically taught to accept it without question. JW meetings are basically set up to teach people how to be "tape recorders;" they learn how to "record" and "playback" teachings that are not really based on the Bible, but are "messages-from-God" from the "mother," Watchtower-organization!

Hope this helps! Best Wishes!

23

607 BC

by minstrel in

could someone explain why this date is incorrect, i had always been told that this date for babylon's conquest of israel was widely accepted by historians etc.

(hence it was also critical in calculating 1914.

)

cyberguy

Welcome Winston!

You're in the right place. Although, this place is often submerged in debate, at least we can ask questions and try and find answers! Something that can NOT be done at your local KH!

TheOldHippie

When’s the Furuli book coming out? I suppose I should take a look at it, but I don’t consider him much of a scholar (i.e., on the same level as Parker and Dubberstein) . Furthermore, there a number of reasons why the 607-1914 dates don’t work, reasons based on the scriptures alone.

22

Who of you here know someone in Bethel who is leaking information?

by truthseeker in

do any of you here have direct contacts with bethel, or one of the branches?

do any of you have family that is in bethel?.

not too long ago one of you posted that bethel asked for 1000 volunteers to be laid off, but only 6 repsonded.

cyberguy

You bet, "truthseeker,’ I still have some high-level contacts at Bethel. However, there’s no way I’d tell you who they are or post their names on this board; you can’t expect me to do something like that do you? I’m not DF’d or DA’d (yet), but I made a lot of "heavy" contacts while in Bethel some years ago (including several of the GB, 1 had been my CO for 5 years, and Dan Sydlik and wife spent a 2-week vacation with me in the past). Of course, the folks "spilling the beans" at the present moment don’t realize that I’ve posted some of their comments on this board. If they did, I’m sure they wouldn’t talk to me anymore. I realize that you'd probably like to get a better feel for the accuracy of some of the posts, but I simply can't do that!

12

Was the Bible written for the Great Crowd too? (Worship Bk ch3)

by ozziepost in

at the last district convention, the book "worship the only true god" was released intended to be used along with the "knowledge" book on home bible studies.

both books are to be studied before baptism.

so, what are the 'new recruits' learning?

cyberguy

Hey’a Oz! Love your posts!

Was the expression "by-way-of-extension" (as regards extending scriptures from the "anointed" to the "other sheep") used in the public talks in land-down-under as it was used in the USA? I recall this expression repeated as often as the "FDS" expression is now. Anyway, it was a way to (supposedly) make some sense of scriptures that were directly applied to the "anointed," whomever "they" may be!

7

Special Talk Outline...!

by MacHislopp in

37 pp.

33 pp.

cyberguy

Thanks MacHislopp for the outline and related materials! I found this section a bit interesting:

If you read Matthew chapters 24 and 25, Mark chapter 13, and Luke chapter 21, you will see unmistakable evidence that Jesus was talking about our own age. He foretold a time of wars—not just the "wars and reports of wars" that have always marred human history but wars involving ‘nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom’—yes, great international wars.—Matthew 24:6-8.

It appears that the Society is backtracking once gain! Does that surprise anyone here? Carl Olof Jonsson sited two Watchtower articles in one his books that indicated an earlier revision. I reworded his comments some months ago to send to some friends --

The two Watchtower articles below reveal a major change in the Society’s interpretation of Matt. 24:6, 7 (1 st article appeared in 1970). Previously, the Society held that the "wars and reports of wars" mentioned in verse 6 referred to the wars that occurred previous to World War I, whereas verse 7 describes World War I and other major wars since 1914 (see From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, 1958, pp. 178, 179). But the two verses cannot be separated from each other in this way, because the word "for" (Greek gar) in verse 7 clearly shows that this verse simply is an explanation of the preceding verse! The Society finally realized that the two verses refer to the same kinds of wars. Thus the correction in The Watchtower of Jan. 1, 1970: "By going on to say that nation would rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, Jesus is explaining why it is that they would hear of wars and reports of wars" (pp. 43-44).

*** w83 4/1 4-7 World War I and the Beginning of Sorrows ***

World War I and the Beginning of Sorrows

FROM earliest times, mankind’s history has been one of violence and wars. It was because "the earth became filled with violence" that God brought on the global Deluge in Noah’s day. (Genesis 6:11-13) Thereafter the Bible and secular history record hundreds of wars fought even prior to Jesus’ day. So "wars and reports of wars" would not be something new to the world of mankind.

For these "wars and reports of wars" to have meaning for Jesus’ disciples they would have to stand out as being different in some way. He went on to explain: "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in [various] places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:7, 8, Authorized Version; compare Luke 21:10, 11.) So it would not be a case of just hearing of an isolated war here and there. This feature of the sign would take in many nations and kingdoms. It would be total war!

Have we seen such war? Yes, we have, and that starting with the generation of 1914. In fact, we have seen two such globe-encircling wars within this century. That this type of warfare was indeed something new in the annals of human history is attested to by the titles given them by historians. The first was called the Great War. Later this was changed to the first world war, and its successor was named the second world war. World war became a feature starting from the year 1914.

Unparalleled

Sorrows

True to Jesus’ prediction, World War I marked a "beginning of sorrows." As the publishers of the book The End of Order have stated on the book’s jacket: "The first world war and the Versailles Treaty that followed produced the most serious upheaval in the long and stormy course of modern world history. . . . Far from restoring the world to order, the diplomats who met in 1919 at Paris and at Versailles plunged the world again, this time irretrievably, into the chaos of the twentieth century. It was the end of order."

Inside the book, author Charles L. Mee, Jr., goes on to explain: "At the end of the Great War, however, the diplomats confronted a world in fragments, a world that seemed to be in the midst of a massive psychic breakdown, of a breakdown of old combinations of states and of empires, of the disintegration of economic orders, of nineteenth-century capitalism, of the eruption of sudden disaster, of riots and assassinations, of tyranny and disorder, of frivolity and despair, exhilaration and dread on such an order of magnitude as to numb the mind. . .. Far from restoring order to the world, they took the chaos of the Great War, and . . . sealed it as the permanent condition of our century."

Those sorrows—the human death and suffering that began with the first world war—are unparalleled in human history. Modern mechanized warfare—tanks, machine guns, airplanes and submarines—as well as the invention and use of poison gases in warfare—wreaked havoc on the world. "A generation had been decimated on the battlefields of Europe," says the book The End of Order. "No one had seen the likes of such slaughter before: the deaths of soldiers per day were 10 times greater than in the American Civil War, 24 times the deaths in the Napoleonic Wars, 550 times the deaths in the Boer War."

Yet, said Jesus, this would be but a "beginning of sorrows," or "of pangs of distress." Other translations render Jesus’ words as "the beginning of the birthpangs." (Jerusalem Bible; Phillips’ New Testament in Modern English) A woman about to give birth experiences pains that occur with increasing severity, frequency and duration. World War I and its accompanying sorrows were but a start of pangs of distress.

World

Distress Increases

Other and more intense pangs were soon to follow with the coming of World War II. "The total deaths from military action and war-distributed disease attributable to World War I have been estimated as over forty million and those attributable to World War II as over sixty million," writes Quincy Wright in the book A Study of War. "At least 10 per cent of deaths in modern civilization can be attributed directly or indirectly to war."

Civilian deaths were exceptionally high in the second world war. As Professor Wright explains: "Starvation, bombardment, confiscation of property, and terrorization involving the destruction of entire cities were applied in World War II against the entire enemy population and territory. . . . The entire life of the enemy state came to be an object of attack. The doctrine of conquest was even extended by some states to the elimination of a population and its property rights in order to open the space it occupied for settlement."

The distress caused by the fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo in 1945, which resulted in 235,000 deaths, was eclipsed by the horrors unleashed a few months later by the two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What used to take tens of thousands of bombs to accomplish, in terms of lives lost, could now be accomplished by only one bomb. But even more devastating were the deadly effects of the radiation poisoning, which continue until our day.

Writing about just the one atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, World Press Review of June 1982 states: "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse had been turned loose. The lucky ones were those who died in the first onslaught—about 100,000 men, women, schoolchildren, round-faced toddlers, and newborn babies. Most of the additional 100,000 casualties would die in agony from ruptured organs, horrendous burns, or the slow hell of radiation sickness." The pangs of distress were getting stronger.

Peace

Taken From Earth

The reference to the "Horsemen of the Apocalypse" is interesting in that it is based on the Bible account given in the 6th chapter of the book of Revelation. Here, ?Re 6 ?verse 4 reads: "And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him." How well this matches that feature of the sign Jesus gave of nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom!

Peace has indeed been taken away from the earth. While historians have recorded years of peace prior to 1914, there have been none since. Men hoped in vain that the last world war would usher in an era of peace. Says the book The Violent Peace: "The peace that came in 1945 did not mean, as we had hoped, the end of war. Men have fought since then in almost every corner of the globe—from Greece to South Vietnam, from Kashmir to the Congo—and insurrections sprout like mushrooms in the poor nations of the world."

The U.S. State Department reported recently that there have been at least 130 international and civil wars since the end of World War II. "About 701,600,000 of the world’s people are involved in wars of one kind or another," reports the Toronto Star of June 13, 1982. "That’s about one person in six across the face of the globe and a figure that falls not far short of the numbers directly involved in World War II. About 250,000 combatants and up to 2,000,000 civilians are dying in these [wars] every year."

"Wars and reports of wars" continue unabated. As the book The Violent Peace states: "Since [1945] men no longer declare war or make an end to war. They simply war. Ours is an era of mass violence that goes by the name of peace."

Will there be another global pang of distress in the form of a third world war? "We are living in a pre-war and not a post-war world," says Eugene Rostow, director of the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency of the United States. Surely the nations are prepared for such a conflict! Currently they are spending about $1,000,000 each minute on armaments. Of the $550 billion spent on war preparations in 1981, about $110 billion was spent on nuclear weapons. Stockpiles of nuclear weapons are now equivalent in destructive power to one million of the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima. Peace has certainly been taken away from the earth.—Revelation 6:4.

The evidence regarding war in our modern times points to this conclusion: We are indeed living in the "last days" of this present system of things.

Yet Jesus did not stop with just the mention of worldwide war. He mentioned a number of features of the sign that, occurring together, would prove conclusively that we are living at the time of his "presence and of the conclusion of the system of things."

These other features of the sign will be discussed in succeeding issues of this magazine.—Matthew 24:3-12; Luke 21:7-11.

[Blurb on page 6]

"At least 10 per cent of deaths in modern civilization can be attributed directly or indirectly to war"

[Blurb on page 7]

Over 130 international and civil wars have been fought since the end of World War II

*** w70 1/15 43-4 The Coming "Great Tribulation" Foreshadowed ***
"WARS AND REPORTS OF WARS"

11 Besides the appearance of false Christs (which would indicate that Jesus Christ would not be personally present in flesh), the apostles were to "hear of wars and reports of wars." In the case of some wars, the apostles would be so close to the neighborhood of them as to hear directly the sound of them, and not hear mere reports of distant battles. When would this be? Since Jesus’ prophetic words here are leading up to his description of the destruction of earthly Jerusalem, these wars would be between the time of his prophecy and the destruction of the holy city. Especially so if the apostles were to "hear of" such wars.

12 Well, then, what about the wars foretold in the very next verse, ?Lu 21 ?verse seven, in which Jesus goes on to say: "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another"? Are these wars different from the ones just previously foretold? Here the parallel account by the Evangelist Luke makes a break. After quoting Jesus’ words, "When you hear of wars and disorders, do not be terrified. For these things must occur first, but the end does not occur immediately," Luke’s account reads: "Then he went on to say to them: ‘Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.’" (Luke 21:9-11) This break in Luke’s account has been understood by some commentators to mean that Jesus is here starting off on a new line. Yet, how could this reasonably be so, since Jesus is still leading on to Jerusalem’s destruction?

13 Plainly, then, here in the first application of the prophecy, Jesus is referring to international wars due to occur before the impending destruction of Jerusalem. By going on to say that nation would rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, Jesus is explaining why it is that they would hear of wars and reports of wars. But they should not get disturbed at such wars, because these are not the visible proof that the end is right upon them. And according to secular history, there were wars that occurred between the time that Jesus ascended to heaven and the destruction of the holy city. There were the Parthian wars in southwest Asia and the uprisings that took place in the Roman provinces of Gaul and Spain. There was the war waged by Asinaeus and Alinaeus against the Parthians to the east of the Roman Empire. There was the Parthian declaration of war against King Izates of the land of Adiabene.

14 True, these were wars that had no direct connection with Jerusalem, but, be it remembered that Jesus foretold the rising in war of nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom, which would allow for purely Gentile wars. During that time the Jews under the Roman Empire had no kingdom. Nevertheless, there were risings of Jews against other nationalities, and risings of other neighboring nationalities against the Jews, involving the Syrians and Samaritans, so that tens of thousands of Jews were slain. It was a very painful period for the Jews. By a number of rabbis the Jews had been told that, when kingdom would be rising against kingdom and city against city, it would indicate the time of the Messiah, that his appearance was near.

19

DOs, COs, Prominent Elders being DFd recently.

by cyberguy in

i just got off the phone with a friend of mine and thought i should relay something interesting.

he said at a recent (within the last month) elders school in florida, dos, cos and elders that have been associated for decades are becoming "apostates," leaving the organization and have been dfd!

something that makes me say "hummmm!".

cyberguy

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine and thought I should relay something interesting. He said at a recent (within the last month) Elder’s School in Florida, DO’s, CO’s and Elders that have been associated for decades are becoming "apostates," leaving the organization and have been DF’d! Something that makes me say "hummmm!"

My 2-cents!

18

Gred Stafford Not committed--too afraid of being DFd!

by cyberguy in

ive just completed the reading of greg staffords latest book, "the three dissertations on the teachings of jehovahs witnesses.

" although i appreciate his point-of-view overall, i find that his writing is often difficult to follow and at worst, not forthright on doctrinal issues.

basically, i find his writings rather anemic, hes just not forthright; he evidently doesnt want to be dfd!

cyberguy

Here’s a corrected paragraph from above! I tried to edit the prior one, but Simon on some kind of quest and has some bugs in the system, whereby I can’t edit my prior post (which was written in haste and stimulated with a few cocktails late last night!).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’ve just completed the reading of Greg Stafford’s latest book, "The Three Dissertations on the Teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses." Although I appreciate his overall points-of-view, I find that his line-of-reasoning is sometimes difficult to follow and at worst, not forthright on certain doctrinal issues. For example, he insinuates that there’s a problem with the Watchtower’s "faithful and discreet slave" interpretation, gives one alternate interpretation, but then proceeds to conclude with a synopsis of current teaching.

Basically, I find his writings interesting on the one hand, but rather anemic on the other. I get the general idea that he doesn’t want to be DF’d! He obviously isn’t approaching doctrinal issues the same way Ray Franz has! Anyway, I thought I’d give his latest book a try. But other that his treatise on the blood issue, he avoids making "too many waves!" His basic conclusion to almost every matter is sort-of-like a plea to a "kinder, gentler organization," (i.e., "let’s got back to the days of Russel"). However, why write a book where you don’t really state how you feel! I don’t get it! On the other hand, I suspect he’s confused at the moment and just doesn’t want to be DF’d! Chances are he’ll get DF’d anyway, so why not just go out with a BANG!

Just my crazy thoughts!

Cyberguy

18

Gred Stafford Not committed--too afraid of being DFd!

by cyberguy in

ive just completed the reading of greg staffords latest book, "the three dissertations on the teachings of jehovahs witnesses.

" although i appreciate his point-of-view overall, i find that his writing is often difficult to follow and at worst, not forthright on doctrinal issues.

basically, i find his writings rather anemic, hes just not forthright; he evidently doesnt want to be dfd!

cyberguy

I’ve just completed the reading of Greg Stafford’s latest book, "The Three Dissertations on the Teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses." Although I appreciate his point-of-view overall, I find that his writing is often difficult to follow and at worst, not forthright on doctrinal issues. Basically, I find his writings rather anemic, he’s just not forthright; he evidently doesn’t want to be DF’d! Consequently, he doesn’t approach certain issues the same way Ray Franz did in his books! Anyway, I thought I’d give his latest book a try, given the wide coverage on this board. But other that his treatise on the blood issue, he avoids making "too many waves" but strikes only several cords of controversy on certain dates and issues! Why write a book where you don’t really state how you feel! I don’t get it! If you’re not going to fight against the Watchtower, then just do it! I suspect he’s confused at the moment and just doesn’t want to be DF’d!

6

gentile times?

by l3gi0n in

luke 21:20-28 (niv) .

20"when you see being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

21then let those who are in flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

cyberguy

The "Gentile Times," evidently, ended in 70 C.E. (A.D.), not 1914! It's an interesting study to read the Society's explanation of Luke 21:20-24, because they interpret the "Jerusalem" of vs.20 differently from the "Jerusalem" of vs. 24! This presents a major problem, since the context shows that they are the same "Jerusalem." They say that one represents "Natural-Israel," whereas the latter represents "Spiritual-Israel." This presents another problem because it says that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." This implies that "Spiritual-Israel" would no longer be persecuted after the end of the "Gentile times." However, the Society also says that "anointed" ones have been persecuted since 1914; this is a flagrant contradiction!

Edited by - cyberguy on 29 January 2003 13:5:53