Posts by Cygnus

16

What are you doing now you are free?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

what are you using your time to do , that you couldn't do before when enslaved to the decrepit old men of the org?.

i'm now determined to throw down my squeegee , and become an artist.. yes i am ashamed to admit i am a window cleaner.. i have always love drawing and art, but was adviced in school that if iwanted to be an artist i would have to be determined and be totally focused in order to succeed.. but knowing i had to pioneer and go to the meetings etc i knew i wouldn't have time .so i choose to let go of my dream and waste my talents in order to serve god by selling magazines.. in fact the "truth" took up so much time that i almost gave up drawing , i cant draw well unless relaxed and i have plenty of time, in fact my favorite time is early morning when i wake up.. now i have no meetings , studying etc i have lots of time to draw and i just cant stop.. i don't know much about getting into the art world , but looking round different galleries i've seen and comparing my work i belive i can succeed.. i'll give it my best shot anyway.

Cygnus

I devote every minute of my spare time towards the demolition and annihilation of the Watchtower religion.

44

WTS answers Diane Wilson, author

by blondie in

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289653.htm .

posted on sat, may.

watchtower society responds to issues raised in book.

Cygnus

Will,

Have you read the Society's reasons for doing so, or are you just trusting what you read on some opposer's website?

44

WTS answers Diane Wilson, author

by blondie in

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289653.htm .

posted on sat, may.

watchtower society responds to issues raised in book.

Cygnus

Reborn,

Your name is Jason too? Sheesh! No wonder we didn't get along.

Will,

I see no reason to criticize the WT for its use of literature. The Bible is a tough book to understand all on its own. I don't see anyone criticizing the church fathers for their immense volumes of biblical explanation.

And, the NWT is a very good translation (not a version).

44

WTS answers Diane Wilson, author

by blondie in

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289653.htm .

posted on sat, may.

watchtower society responds to issues raised in book.

Cygnus

morris,

There are incompetent people in every field. Going to a "professional" does not necessarily mean you are going to get the help you require. I submit that some elders actually do help in the process of recovery from trajic events.

However, this again has nothing to do with the issue of a person being accused of rape or molestation. If a woman or a child's parents do not want to go through the difficult questions to validate what they believe happened to them, then what is there for elders to do? I simply do not comprehend where you are coming from in relation to the elders' responsibility as leaders in the congregation. What exactly do you want them to do? Interrogate the accused but ask nothing of the accuser?

D8ta,

You're right, it is semantics. I know full well what the WT has said and has thought of itself. But my point remains. At my judicial hearing, I said that the elders were following orders from Brooklyn (or something to that effect). The chairman slammed his hand down on the Bible and said, "NO, we are following THIS!" All in all it is a wash. But my point is, without the Bible, there are no Watchtowers, no Watchtower doctrines, no Watchtower policies, etc etc etc.

Therefore, the WT claims a prophet-like status, in that they claim to properly understand and are the channel for revealing the meanings of inspired words of scripture -- regarding conduct and behavior, doctrine, and prophecy. Do I believe it? No of course I don't. But who am I or who is Reborn or anyone else to put words in their mouths or redefine their own definitions of what they claim to be?

Reborn's point of view is not categorically wrong, he is simply a little overzealous in finding ways to apply his criticism. Like I was once.

Oh, and in response to:

: what bothers me, Cygnus, is in your last post of your argument closed rather arrogantly

I feel I have a right to be arrogant in certain respects. I feel I do have a measure of clout here, even if I do not post that often. I have been around the block more than once, I have a lot of friends in the know, and I have learned the ability to see things from all different angles and perspectives. So I will come across as arrogant if I feel it is warranted. However, I am not the one calling the other a "fucking idiot."

44

WTS answers Diane Wilson, author

by blondie in

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289653.htm .

posted on sat, may.

watchtower society responds to issues raised in book.

Cygnus

morris,

: I know something that is worse: being the rape or molestation victim.

I am talking about handling allegations and accusations, not being victimized by some trauma. I agree that rape is a horrible thing, but that is a separate issue.

: The fact that the elders want to make sure the accusation is true does not take away from the way they handle the victim. They are not qualified...

However they are responsible for the congregation.

Are you suggesting that a person who feels that she was raped (whether by another JW or not) should NEVER discuss the matter with the congregation elders? That it is none of the congregation's business at all? Perhaps you are suggesting that an alleged rape victim ought to turn in their disassociation letter and quit and forget about the JWs altogether?

: If the Elders handling our case had called annonomously the police or child care workers and said, "We are aware of 4 children who have been sexually abused over a period of years....."

I am uncertain that in your case whether it was the elders' responsibility and not yours to notify the authorities. The Society's policy however is that elders will notify if they are supposed to, and that they leave it up to the individual whether he or she wishes to notify the authorities. What is there to criticize about that? If certain elders in the past have attempted to keep JWs from disclosing crimes, then that was their mistake. And it was also the mistake of the persons who followed such directions by keeping quiet.

Reborn,

I am just responding now because I do not sit in front of a computer all day and all night.

First, I am not a JW-apologist. I have been a full-fledged apostate for almost 5 years.

What you are doing, Reborn, is taking infamous Watchtower quotes and misapplying them. Such quotes are damning in that they show how arrogant and pompous the WT organization has been, but they do not prove your allegations.

For instance, that 1967 Watchtower says that only Jehovah's organization can properly interpret the Bible. That does not equate with your allegation that the Watchtower is more important than the Bible. Do you see the difference?

The 1983 Watchtower says that association and servitude with the organization is essential for salvation. That is because the organization teaches the truth _from the scriptures_. You have it backwards. Now, if the Society came out with a new Bible, or added to the Bible, a la the Latter-Day Saints, then perhaps you'd have an argument. As it stands you do not.

: : I agree that the Watchtower certainly has printed misinformation and the PR statements are not telling the whole truth.

: How does that not equate to misleading people or lying? Ahh yes, dont remind me.. theocratic war strategy right?

I think the old articles on thecratic war strategy were pretty stupid. However, I saw no reason why Semonian should have felt obligated to delve into minute detail regarding the Society's errors and mistakes. If the interviewer wanted to hear a nonJW's or an exJW's opinion, she would ask one.

: Q Is the organization a direct channel between God and humanity?

: A Again, our governing body has never claimed that our organization is inspired or infallible. Instead they, our governing body, study the Bible diligently and through prayer they make a request for his Holy Spirit to direct them and be upon them. And with his help, they come to decisions. So we believe this to be the channel that God is using today. But our governing body has said that it is not inspired or infallible.

: How much more written evidence do you need?

I need to see where the Watchtower has claimed to be inspired and infallible. I see from your quotes where the Watchtower claims that God uses them (as Semonian said). I see where the Watchtower claims that they benefit in understanding from the holy spirit (as Semonion said). I see where the Watchtower has a governing body that makes doctrinal decisions (as Semonian said). I see where the Watchtower claims to be a channel to God for disclosure of his guidance, direction, and the doing of his will (as Semonian said). What I don't see in your quotes is a claim that the Watchtower is and always has been perfect, inspired on par with scripture, or infallible and never wrong.

Reborn, I was where you are several years ago. I thought that I was really a tough guy by taking on the big bad monster that is the Watchtower Society. I had the WT CD-ROM and I did the same thing you are doing with it. I could probably recite those articles you are cutting and pasting by memory. The fact is the Watchtower has made huge blunders in the past, and certain statements and mindsets have given very many elders license in their minds to commit some great atrocities. That does NOT mean that contemporary JW spokespeople are LIARS LIARS LIARS or that JW policies are 100% wrong in every aspect.

80

Post JW Cult - JanH

by Imbue in

jw
friends

i thought this was a timely essay you all should read!.

http://kent.steinhaug.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=427.

the post-jw cult janh.

Cygnus

For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with Jan H.

As I should since we were separated at birth.

21

Was russel Fremason?

by happy man in

jw
friends

i find this on unother board and i think it proof realy good that russel dont was a mason.. "there is no evidence that the 1913 discourse was an attempt to lay an issue at rest.

there is no evidence that it was.

thought that russell was a mason at the time.

Cygnus

avengers,

That Freeminds video proved nothing and answered nothing. The pyramid is not above Russell's grave. Now. Who put the pyramid where it stands? Answer that question.

By the by, while I admire Russell's ransom doctrine, I don't believe it. Nor am I a supporter of any religion except for Nothingism (I only pretend to be a Last Thursdayist).

The problem with people like you is you see something on TV or on some website and automatically assume that since it is on TV or on a website it HAS to be true.

18

Watchtower Not a religious organization?

by RR in

jw
friends

i guess somebody should tell the watchtower, there not religious:.

"this is a business association merely; it was chartered as a corporation by the state of pennsylvania, and authorized to hold or dispose of property in its own name as though it were an individual.

it is merely a business convenience in disseminating the truth.

Cygnus

Joe,

: Classic mistake. Quoting literature more than a hundred years old and applying it to the modern organization called Jehovah's Witnesses.

RR associates with Bible Student groups. When he posts stuff like this, he is trying to show how far from the early days the modern organization has come.

RR also has a great beard.

21

Was russel Fremason?

by happy man in

jw
friends

i find this on unother board and i think it proof realy good that russel dont was a mason.. "there is no evidence that the 1913 discourse was an attempt to lay an issue at rest.

there is no evidence that it was.

thought that russell was a mason at the time.

Cygnus

avengers,

Absolute rubbish. Russell was slightly preoccupied with masonic symbology and the Great Pyramid. Otherwise he had nothing to do with freemasonry.

Russell said "I am a Free Mason" but you completely ignore the context of his remarks. Later in that text he also said "I have never been a Mason" and admitted that he knew little about masonic customs. I have other interviews and QA sessions from him which show his lack of knowledge regarding Masonry.

And Russell was NOT buried under a pyramid. Tell me, do you know who put that pyramid where it is?

44

WTS answers Diane Wilson, author

by blondie in

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/3289653.htm .

posted on sat, may.

watchtower society responds to issues raised in book.

Cygnus

Reborn,

You are the one rationalizing. Nowhere has the WT organization ever claimed infallibility or inspiration from God on par with scripture. Your WT references illustrate two things:

1) that the WT organization has thought way more of itself than the actual facts ought to warrant

and 2) that such statements by the WT are clear indications that whoever wrote them were likely clinically insane

As Pathofhorns said, in practice, such language introduces and ferments the idea that Loyalty to Organization = Loyalty to God. However, that is primarily the fault of the sheep who follows through and accepts such an idea.

My point is, if you asked an elder, or a CO, or a Governing Body member which was more important: the Watchtower or the Bible, they'd say the Bible. If you asked where the WT gets its teachings, doctrines and policies from, they'd say the Bible. And they are right. And terrible as it might seem to some of us here, I would argue that even extrabiblical practices that the Witnesses choose to adhere to can rightly be extrapolated from the Bible or the culture of Jews/Christians.

Whether you like it or not, the Bible DOES teach that God works through groups of people. ORGANIZED groups of people. Witnesses believe that they today are that organized group of people. They also realize that they make mistakes, just as did Moses, Jonah, David, Peter, etc.

People call JWs "false prophets." Was Jonah a false prophet because his initial message to the Ninevites didn't come to be? No Bible believer would argue that. And yet that is how JWs become characterized. God disciplined Jonah and he retained God's favor. Could the same be argued for the Watchtower organization? Yes, I believe so.

I see alot of emotion on this board regarding the LIES LIES LIES the Watchtower tells. I agree that the Watchtower certainly has printed misinformation and the PR statements are not telling the whole truth. Certainly nobody should mistake me for being a proponent of the Watchtower religion. There are only four things about JWism that I agree with. But EVERYONE at some point or another says things in their defense in attempts to clear their name and what they stand for. And the record shows that, while the WT has certainly made astonishingly arrogant statements about itself in God's purpose, nowhere do they claim to be infallible or inspired. Nowhere.

I stand behind what I said. I see no lies in that interview.