I didn't see me there. In case you can't quite make out my avatar, it is a picture of Jesus on the cross with a Ghostbusters-type circle and slash, and the words say CHRISTENDOM SUCKS. It is actually my creation which I submitted to a company that makes bumper stickers and they made me a couple. So I have "Christendom SUCKS" on my car next to my Darwin fish. I wonder how many xtians I piss off on the roads. Edited to add: Name's Jason, I'm 33, live in suburban Buffalo, NY.
Posts by Cygnus
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24I said maybe, You're gonna be the one that saves me . . . . .
by nicolaou inand after all, you're my wonderwall .
today is gonna be the day .
that they're gonna throw it back to you .
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2 Elders Ask My Mom 2 Questions-----What's Your Opinion On Motive?
by minimus in#1 do you love jehovah?......she answered, "of course i love jehovah".
#2 do you feel the same about the faithful & discreet slave?....she answered, "why wouldn't i ?
they taught me everything i know".-----to give you some background, the elders paid a shepherding call on this ill former regular pioneer that they deleted for going to an "unequaled yoking" of a wedding of my inactive daughter and her "worldly" husband.
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Cygnus
It sounds horrifying, what's going on there. How in Yahoo's good name can those elders sleep at night?
I made a mockery of those questions when posed to me, and was ceremoniously DF'd (I performed the ceremony part, god it felt good to make the elders look like morons and also to treat them as the robotic morons they were). I can guarantee a way not to get DF'd. True to life story. A bit of it here.
I was technically DF'd for associating with a DF'd person. Another life-long friend was an inactive JW living as roommates with the fella I got DF'd over. When the elders approached him, he showed them his M-16 assault rifle and said 'if you even TRY to DF me and force my family to shun me, I will load up this weapon, kill you, kill your families, and then kill myself.' Then, staring at them with steely, unflinching eyes, he said: 'And I mean it!'
They never bothered him again and while he swears, has illicit sex, and does whatever he wants, including NOT going to the kingdumb hall, he has free reign to associate with any JW he pleases.
Edited to add: When my brother, who had been a baptized JW but quit practicing for some years, got married in a Methodist church, my JW mom and dad had no reservations about attending. They were married by a woman minister under the blessing of the holy trinity. I'm lucky to have family like I do. I'm DF'd and my parents love me more than ever. At my judicial hearing one elder said to me, "It'll be a real hardship for your parents to not be able to talk to you." I stood up, pointed my finger at him and said, "Ha! If you think my family will abide by the ruling of this council, you're dead wrong. And if you even THINK of trying to go after them for talking to me, I'll be after you like flies go after s**t. I want each and every one of your names, addresses and phone #'s, 'cause I won' sue the congregation, I won't sue the WTS, I'll sue each and every one of YOU." They gave up their personal info to me and I have not had a problem since.
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72
What's your favorite music group that I probably haven't heard of?
by joelbear in.
i'll start.. guster.
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Cygnus
Crumpet,
Fairport Convention! Yes! I love Dave Pegg. He quit FC in 1980 to join Tull cause Tull did what FC did only better. Did he ever quit drinking? For a while I really feared for his liver....
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215
Trinity- True or False
by defd ini know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.
what are your thoughts?
is jesus almighty god?
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Cygnus
Well, LT, I apologize but I think we've exhausted this discussion and I'm going to step aside. You and I differ because you have an emotional investment in this, and I honestly couldn't care less if Jesus, the Buddha, and Don my next door neighbor were all manifestations of God. My father, a JW for 40+ years says I'm right. Robert King/e-watchman, a devout and frothing-at-the-mouth-over-doctrine-quasi-JW says I'm right, and what I read in the WT says I'm right. I don't think you can apply, what did you say?, old light-new light-old light to this subject. The WT has never taught differently than what I've presented. Some JWs may not understand it or even agree to it, but it is the stated doctrine.
Nice to dialogue again with you, LT, and again, many thanks for posting my words above when I asked you to as a favor. :)
Edited to add: LT wrote, : Ask a JW if immortality means godhood and they'll disagree with you point blank. They are not synonyms, as Moses was made "God" in Exodus (theos in LXX), but a JW would definitely agree that Jesus possesses both godhood (in fact, always did, even the angels do, as does Satan, as one definition of godhood means powerfulness, i.e. Herod proclaiming himself to be a god, or the islanders saying Paul was a god) and immortality NOW, post-resurrection. So that's not really my argument. You gotta define what sort of "godhood" you mean, and then understand what "immortality" means to a JW, i.e. post-humans after the 1000 years will be perfected and undying, but not immortal. It's strange and weird and a little tough to comprehend, that's likely why you have to go back to 1951 or the Studies in the Scriptures to get a decent explanation. Many contemporary JWs would read what I posted and go, "Huh?"
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215
Trinity- True or False
by defd ini know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.
what are your thoughts?
is jesus almighty god?
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Cygnus
LT, I know you aren't arguing the trinity. That's why I said your ideas would probably fundamentally differ from an Eastern Orthodoxian. From a brief search on the WT-CDROM here's a snippet of what I came up with regarding the JW christological ideas of Jesus' (and the 144,000's) deity:
*** w67 8/1 pp. 455-456 A New Administration of Earth’s Affairs ***
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority.” Jesus looked forward to sharing in a marvelous resurrection, and his followers happily anticipate this. They are raised up from their earthly bodies, which are mortal and corruptible, and changed, in that they are given incorruptible, immortal bodies. They are able to enter into the very presence of God, who is immortal. The “second death” symbolized by the “fiery lake that burns with sulphur” into which the “wild beast” and the “false prophet” were hurled has “no authority” over the 144,000, for immortality means deathlessness. Jesus Christ was given “indestructible life” and these are sharers with him.—1 Cor. 15:53, 54; Heb. 7:16.
*** w52 7/1 p. 412 Restrictions of Christian Freedom ***
Man is not the only creature that has bounds set to his relative freedom. Since it is written that man is ‘made a little lower than the angels’, it appears that the area of relative freedom enjoyed by the angels would be somewhat greater than that of faithful man. (Heb. 2:6, 7, NW) Then there are the 144,000 members of the glorified Kingdom organization in heaven who are “sharers in divine nature”, which is a status still higher than that of any of the angels. So with like reasoning it must be concluded that these glorious immortal sons of God enjoy a vast field of relative freedom conformative to their new creation. (2 Pet. 1:4; 2 Cor. 5:17, NW) Of the resurrected Christ Jesus, the King, it is written, “He is the reflection of his [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb. 1:3, NW) Truly this exalted one has a relative freedom of great free-will action that must approximate that of God himself. Yet, in fact, Jehovah as the Sovereign Superior is the sole one who has absolute freedom. (bold and italics mine)
Edited to add: Joe Malik, you have a PM sir. :)
Secondary edit: "deathlessness" to a JW means a state of undying, or incapacity to die. These personages rely on no external means to support their life, but have as the Bible calls it 'life within themselves'. And they cannot be put out of life, they are indestructible. Angels do not possess this obviously; Satan and his hordes end up in Gehenna, which, again, to a JW means utter annihilation from which there is no escape. Granted, do contemporary JWs think about this stuff? No. I bet even most professed "anointed" couldn't coherently explain it. But there it is in black-and-white. -
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I felt like a JW! plus my usual edit, and pic!
by Cygnus ini hate to preach here, but google "anti-aging" and "hedonistic imperative" and find out what truly is just a matter of time, and if we get rid of politicians like gwb it might come soon enough so men like me, friends of mine my age, i.e.
those of us with maybe 50-60 years left can benefit from it., imagine in 200 years from now where we'll be bio-medically.
heart and liver transplants and ligament replacements will be seen as medieval and rudimentary -- just plant the necessary gene and turn it on and regrow the sumbitch!
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Cygnus
I hate to preach here, but google "anti-aging" and "hedonistic imperative" and find out what TRULY is just a matter of time, and if we get rid of politicians like GWB it MIGHT come soon enough so men like me, friends of mine my age, i.e. those of us with maybe 50-60 years left can benefit from it., Imagine in 200 years from now where we'll be bio-medically. Heart and liver transplants and ligament replacements will be seen as medieval and rudimentary -- just plant the necessary gene and turn it on and regrow the sumbitch! Or if we can, on a genetic level, figure out how to naturally fire the neurotransmitters in our brains to constantly feel ecstasy and joyfulness without needing external stimuli i.e. yoga, or eating mass amounts of chocolate, or shooting up heroin or smoking meth, imagine how our post-darwinian ancestors 2-3-400 years from now will view techniques done and pharmaceuticals handed out like candy in the year 2005. Imagine how we view medicine from 1805. Imagine how some random person from 1805 would view something so simple we take for granted everyday, like cable TV, or indoor plumbing! How dastardly and irresponsible we are if we don't look to perfect the biological program that might allow us to live to be 400 or 500 years old and live GOOD and HAPPY lives, not fighting through the muck we do now. I was fitted with new splints yesterday to help with my wrist drop which meant it was me and this lady-specialist together for an hour and i just talked her ear off about anti-aging and the hedonistic imperative and she asked a lot of questions and i answered her with such glee and explosion it was like I was a newly converted JW getting an hour of (incidental) field service in. I'll probably slow it down, but right now it's a concept I like to think about - humans producing paradisaic conditions and religion and her promises finally falling flat on her face! Edited to add: Remember in Star Trek IV the movie how McCoy was arguing with the 1986 doctor about how to properly treat Chekov for his head injury and he yelled, "My god, man! Drilling holes into his head isn't the answer! You have to repair the artery!" And he did so by waving a machine over Pavel's head. Maybe we'll also get that far in science, but it won't be science fiction. It was funny too see McCoy characterize the hospital as practicing "medievalism" and you know, 20 years ago when that film was made (god, I'm getting old) and even what we do now as medical practice, 200 years in the future will be seen as absolute butchery. I have a lot more to say but I just woke up from 13 hours of good sleep and have a ton to do. But I'll be around, and my email is [email protected] and yahoo id is fractured_fibula if you want to say hi. Thanks for reading and a special hi to all my old friends out there, and it was great to talk to Eduardo for an hour on the phone yesterday. :) One more edit, if ya wanna see what this morning I just did to myself aesthetically, here's a pic. :) (That's a Clockwork Orange t-shirt) http://members.aol.com/cygnus97/pics/me81105.jpg
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215
Trinity- True or False
by defd ini know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.
what are your thoughts?
is jesus almighty god?
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Cygnus
Hellrider, not much time here sorry, but I believe Jn 8:58 is unique both in its contextual grammar to make its importance time, but also it differs linguistically from all the other "I am [he]" statements. I see all these (extra non- Jn 8:58) ego eimis as being nothing more than part of Jesus' claim to be the promised Messiah, not YHWH, and nothing else. To assume more is to violate and presume upon the texts.
I am not feeling well and might head for bed. See you all in several hours.
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Cygnus
AlanF, I've known him for over 8 years. Billy Corgan, I've known him about 10. Both are gods in my opinion.
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215
Trinity- True or False
by defd ini know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.
what are your thoughts?
is jesus almighty god?
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Cygnus
Zen nudist, you're exactly right and if I were a Christian/Catholic, while I would accept the trinity as a matter of accepting tradition, I could not buy into the scholastic approach that tie Jn 8:58 to Ex 3:14 making Jesus "the" ego eimi ho on.And Joe Malik had a good point about the LXX copies being stored away but I am not tied to reductionist thinking and have to insist the actual apostle John wrote the book so the encounter in Jn 8 with the Jews very well could have been a later addition. I don't know, who was the first so-called church father to advance the argument that Jesus was "the I AM"? I don't think Origen did. Maybe Justin?
Edited to add: I spoke to a Jew once who was arguing with trinitarian Messianic Jews (Jews for Jesus) and he told me that in Judaism, it is anathema to believe that the Messiah would be YHWH himself.
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215
Trinity- True or False
by defd ini know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.
what are your thoughts?
is jesus almighty god?
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Cygnus
LT and hellrider, I appreciate your points and respect them, but it hurt me to read them because I'm very sorry, but I must disagree. I just got back from occupational therapy and had new 2 new hand splints made for me and I need to bathe and take care of some hygiene issues so I'm a little busy and now my WT-CDROM won't work. I will edit this post later when I can get it to work to provide some black-and-white basis for my assertions. Edited to add: OK, I called my dad and explained to him what's going on so he is going to give me his 1991 WTCDROM; my mom is going to bring it to me in a few hours. So I'll try to make my posting some time tonight. Isn't it great that I have JW parents who will give me a WT CD for apostate purposes?
