At least my big furry slippers have a gorilla face
DakotaRed
JoinedPosts by DakotaRed
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9
PORTLAND OR. GROUP MEETING ON "APRIL'S FOO...
by new boy inthere will be a support group meeting, for any one who would like to attend in tigard oregon this april 1 2002 at 7:00 p.m.{april fools day} feel free to e-mail me for details at [email protected]
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21
The Immorality of Losing
by DakotaRed ina very good article written by a 60's war protestor and left winger, who moved to israel and seems to have grown up and now sees the world through different eyes.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/hillel/halkin_protest.asp
the immorality of losing
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DakotaRed
A very good article written by a 60's war protestor and left winger, who moved to Israel and seems to have grown up and now sees the world through different eyes.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/hillel/halkin_protest.asp
The immorality of losing
By Hillel Halkin
http://www.jewishworldreview.com | An old friend in New York with whom we are still in contact after 33 years of living in Israel told my wife over the phone last week about the antiwar demonstration she had just marched in.
"It was like the Sixties," she said excitedly. "Remember?"
Of course we remembered. We had marched side-by-side with her and her first husband in a candlelight parade in Manhattan. "All we are saying/ is give peace a chance," we sang, linking arms as we walked up Broadway to protest the war in Vietnam.
And now I am angry at her for being against an American attack on Iraq, and she is bewildered by my anger. Both of us, on some level, feel betrayed. I suppose she has the better case. After all, it's I who switched sides. It's I, too, who am no longer the American.
And of course this has something to do with it. When I was one, I looked out at the world from its center. Vietnam was on the periphery and did not seem a place worth getting killed in or killing anyone for. Today I live on the periphery myself, in a small and vulnerable country faced with numerically superior enemies.
For the moment, I'm quite able to defend myself. But I can do so only because of generous American aid, and I'm quite aware that if ever the day comes when this too is not enough, the only nation in the world that would even consider coming to my rescue is America - the same America that sought to rescue South Vietnam, and failed.
Which is part of the reason I see that failure differently today. At the time I thought, like many Americans, that America deserved to fail in Vietnam. It had barged, arrogantly and stupidly, into a country it had no business being in, and it had caused that country's inhabitants enormous suffering by doing so.
The North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies in South Vietnam may have been communists, but they were also freedom fighters trying to rid their homeland of foreign invaders. I sympathized with them. I was glad when America lost, and something in me exulted even at the pathetic pictures of its panicky evacuation of Saigon. The weak had vanquished the strong, who had been taught a terrible and well-earned lesson in the abuse of power.
This is still the way many Americans think of the war in Vietnam. Would I be one of them had I not moved to Israel in 1970? A meaningless question, perhaps, like all such hypotheticals --- yet I would like to think that the answer is no.
I didn't have to move to Israel to outgrow my left-wing sympathies, nor to acknowledge the brutal nature of the North Vietnamese regime that took over South Vietnam, from which hundreds of thousands of "boat people" risked (and often lost) their lives fleeing; or the genocidal barbarism of its Khmer Rouge ally in Cambodia, which perpetrated an Asian Holocaust on its own people.
And I could have remained in America and realized that wherever in the world democratic, pro-American countries were compared with totalitarian, anti-American ones - South and North Korea, for example - the comparison was between prosperity and freedom on the one hand, and poverty, degradation and fear on the other.
There was nothing intrinsically wrong about the American intervention in Vietnam. It was a terrible war and the American conduct of it was often reprehensible. And yet had America won, not only would the peoples of Indochina have been far better off, the world would have been a safer place.
It might have been a world, for example, in which the Soviets thought twice about invading Afghanistan a few years later, thus setting off a chain of events that ended with the Taliban in power.
The perspective of Israel is hardly necessary to grasp this, even if it does help one to imagine more clearly how many South Vietnamese must have felt toward America in the 1960s: grateful that it cared about them, insecure about its ultimate intentions, and fearful of being cruelly abandoned by it - as indeed they eventually were.
It was not fighting the war in Vietnam that was immoral. It was losing it. Or rather, it was immoral to fight it if there was reason to believe it could not be won.
Perhaps, given the situation in Vietnam in those years, in which a series of weak and corrupt governments in Saigon could not rally the support of their own people, this was indeed the case. But Americans like me who did not make the distinction between a war that deserved to be fought if it was winnable and a war that did not deserve to be fought at all helped, by their protests, to make it unwinnable.
Those who still do not make this distinction are now marching blindly against a war in Iraq.
If anyone has failed to learn the lesson of Vietnam, it is they. Nothing could be more justified than overthrowing the regime of Saddam Hussein, destroying all weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and helping the Iraqi people lead a better life that might be a model for others in the Middle East. The only thing unjustified about an attack on Iraq would be its failure to meet these goals.
If there is reasonable room for doubt that America, for whatever reason, will be unable to stay the course, as it was unable to stay it in Vietnam, it would indeed be terribly wrong to begin it, for lives will have been lost for no good reason.
But America's ability to stay the course will be influenced by many things, among them support for staying it in both America and the world.
If the American public decides that its government is pursuing a wrong-headed and overly costly policy in which Europe refuses to join as a partner while sniping from the sidelines, the chances of this policy's success will be smaller, and those of America leaving before the job is done will be larger.
The result might then be an Iraq freed of Saddam, but still run by thuggish generals or Islamist extremists who would rearm at the first opportunity.
A war that ended this way would not have been a war worth fighting. It would indeed have been immoral --- and the immoralists would include, paradoxically, the very people who are now marching against it.
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13
"Human Shields" Leave Iraq, Miss Out On Darwin Award
by SYN inhuman shield britons quit baghdad
by charlotte edwardes in baghdad .
(filed: 02/03/2003) .
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DakotaRed
Upon leaving, I hope they all hook arms and sing Kumbaya on the way out.
What ingratitude from Iraqi Officials. All the want is to give peace a chance, lol. Sheesh.
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18
Poll
by patio34 inwhat to wear to attract the opposite sex
this is from the book how to make anyone fall in love with you.. in a study, both men and women were shown pictures of members of the opposite sex.
some of the people in photos wore chic upscale clothes, and others wore less expensive ones that ranged from cheap to downright cheesy.
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DakotaRed
I can honestly state that no matter what Rosanne Barr was wearing, I would not mentally undress her.
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14
War or No War --- The Dispute
by hornetsnest ini usually don't get involved in things like this, as i've long known the futility and uselessness of arguing with jello.
however, for the benefit of those looking on and wondering where the truth really lies, i figured i'd say a few things.. back2dafront made quite a spiel over on another thread about how terrible it is to serve in the armed forces, and i must say that the tears of purple koolade were just pouring down my cheeks in rivers.
he's such an abused little fellow ... personally, i'll bet my wife's been shot at more than he has.
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DakotaRed
Just recently I read about how he is destroying the marshlands in southern Iraq. Definitely not good - I don't think the public is very aware of it, that's why no outcry as you mentioned.
At the risk of suffering the ire of the anti-war left, I submit that many are unaware of this due to not looking beyond the claims of American Imperialism and "It's All About Oil," coming from their leaders. If any did a real search of information, they would see these claims as bogus as can be. Of course, they would need to seriously look at the other issues and not necessarily their preconceived notions.
Yes, the US does have the capability to annhilate Iraq many times over, with help from no one. That we haven't and instead, are seeking support from others and involving the UN blows holes in many claims of the protestors.
To be properly informed, one needs to seriously look at both sides of an issue. Many, from both sides, look at only views they agree with. If you are really going to protest, at least be accurate about what you are protesting and realize that others may again pay dire consequences for your actions.
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War or No War --- The Dispute
by hornetsnest ini usually don't get involved in things like this, as i've long known the futility and uselessness of arguing with jello.
however, for the benefit of those looking on and wondering where the truth really lies, i figured i'd say a few things.. back2dafront made quite a spiel over on another thread about how terrible it is to serve in the armed forces, and i must say that the tears of purple koolade were just pouring down my cheeks in rivers.
he's such an abused little fellow ... personally, i'll bet my wife's been shot at more than he has.
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DakotaRed
Back2dafront, the simplest terms I can put it in would be to equate it to dealing with a schoolyard bully. If one kid stands up to him, most likely, they will fight. If the entire class stands up to him, he will back down, being faced with superior numbers.
As long as Saddam sees some pressing for him to be left alone, he will continue arming, hiding arms, or whatever else he is doing. Recently, Hans Blix ordered them to destroy all of a certain type of missle as it flies firther than allowed by UN resolutions. Iraqs answer was, "we will study the order." Is that compliance?
Also, they claim the destruction of chemical and biological weapnry. How? They claim to have poured it out in desert and will now dig trenches to have the soil examined for verification. Does that determine if all of the chemical or biological agents were poured out? Or, just a little? I see it as stonewalling. On another note, where is the public outcry for the pollution that may have been caused by simply pouring these agents out somewhere in the desert?
If Saddam were faced with worldwide condemnation and demands that he totally comply and actually had complied, the sanctions would have been lifted long ago, Hans Blix even says so. If all the nations stood side by side, demanding he comply or face dire consequences, my money is on he would comply. As long as he is empowered by nations as France, Germany and others allowing him to continue as he is, he will not comply.
By the way, it is France and Germany who armed him and purchase the bulk of his oil, not the US. Makes me really wonder what their true motives actually are.
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War or No War --- The Dispute
by hornetsnest ini usually don't get involved in things like this, as i've long known the futility and uselessness of arguing with jello.
however, for the benefit of those looking on and wondering where the truth really lies, i figured i'd say a few things.. back2dafront made quite a spiel over on another thread about how terrible it is to serve in the armed forces, and i must say that the tears of purple koolade were just pouring down my cheeks in rivers.
he's such an abused little fellow ... personally, i'll bet my wife's been shot at more than he has.
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DakotaRed
War is FINE if there is international consensus, i.e., a unarguable mandate from the UN.
If you substitute League of Nations for UN, I do believe you will see this is the same attitude that enabled Hitler to gain the power he had. That seems to be the whole point of the article. How do any of you propose to ever gain an "unarguable mandate" from the UN when you have a nation ready to empower Saddam at every turn? Yes, France, not the US.
Another point continually missed is that this coming war can be stopped before any shots are fired by all standing up to Saddam and demanding he disarm, as previously mandated, unarguably, by the UN back in 1991. Saddam can see the discord worldwide and just as general Giaap of the North Vietnamese Army long ago, uses that discord to continue arming and extending the inspections. If 12 years isn't enough time for him to disarm, what is?
Abaddon, I hate to tell you, but your points are being addressed in other threads, just not in the manner you want. Sorry if you don't get the answers stated as you wish, but an answer is still an answer. This is not a Watchtower Study where the answers are predetermined.
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18
IN THE NAVY
by josephus inthis week i did what ive allways wanted to do and joined the navy,,, well nany reserve is the best i can do right now.. im waiting for all the tests now, but i just wanted your thoughts on the "moral rightness" of joining the military.. im still gonna do it though!.
cheers bigears.
josephus
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DakotaRed
Josephus, I applaud your decision to join up, even if in he reserves. I served in the Army for 8 years myself, 5 of those overseas.
As for any "moral rightness," I see absolutely nothing wrong with serving ones country, morally or otherwise. I think more should join and get the "education" available through the travel and serving with so many others from all over.
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The Show of Over-Patriotism Astounds Me
by D8TA inwhile you watch your britney spears videos...your freedom is being taken away.. while you cheer for your nba team and drink that beer...your freedom is being taken away.. while you watch cnn/msnbc/foxnews reports about laci peterson and shuttle disasters....your freedom is being taken away.. while you see one of the greatest misdirections about "condition orange" blinking on your sets....your freedom is being taken away.. while you hoot-n-holler for going to war with saddam hussien...your freedom is being taken away.. while you turn on your computer to surf the internet...your freedom is being taken away.. while you worry about what sports car to buy...your freedom is being taken away.. while you sit in your home with the heat on, enjoying 3 sqaures a day...your freedom is being taken away.. while you worry about your next job promotion...your freedom is being taken away.. while you are being suckered by the greatest sham from the u.s. government...your freedom is being taken away.. it's amazing, that very few here realize what the patriot act and dept.
of homeland defense represents....and what is now in place.
for the rest who don't know...you have my pity.
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DakotaRed
D8TA, Charlie, Realist and the rest of you left wingers, sometimes it is better to not say anything and let people think you are stupid, than to open your mouths and prove it beyond any shadow of doubt.
With that, I bid you all adieu.
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The Show of Over-Patriotism Astounds Me
by D8TA inwhile you watch your britney spears videos...your freedom is being taken away.. while you cheer for your nba team and drink that beer...your freedom is being taken away.. while you watch cnn/msnbc/foxnews reports about laci peterson and shuttle disasters....your freedom is being taken away.. while you see one of the greatest misdirections about "condition orange" blinking on your sets....your freedom is being taken away.. while you hoot-n-holler for going to war with saddam hussien...your freedom is being taken away.. while you turn on your computer to surf the internet...your freedom is being taken away.. while you worry about what sports car to buy...your freedom is being taken away.. while you sit in your home with the heat on, enjoying 3 sqaures a day...your freedom is being taken away.. while you worry about your next job promotion...your freedom is being taken away.. while you are being suckered by the greatest sham from the u.s. government...your freedom is being taken away.. it's amazing, that very few here realize what the patriot act and dept.
of homeland defense represents....and what is now in place.
for the rest who don't know...you have my pity.
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DakotaRed
Now D8TA, an HONEST review of your thread.
You start on page one stating while we are sleeping, watching TV or diddling the wife, our freedoms are being taken away left and right. When challenged as to what freedoms you or anyone you know have lost, all hell breaks lose and it becomes, "this maybe could happen," "it is just a warning."
Like it or not, we are at war right now, maybe not the conventional war you have seen glorified on TV, but war nonetheless. No, not against Iraq just yet, but it is coming. War demands concessions, like it or not. Ask your grandparents that went through WW2 what they had to sacrifice to acheive the final outcome.
I also have to ask, with the common thought that the Watchtower monitors this board and the claim that emails are intercepted and blocked that aren't flattering to Bush, how is it the FBI has missed this board and it's anti-American, anti-Bush leanings? I have yet to see any notice, official or otherwise, that posts are being blocked.
What ever happened to common sense?